The Great Apostasy - Revision history

SpencerMarsh at 16:28, 10 September 2026

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	Accordingly, “the gates of Hades” can naturally be understood as a reference to the power of death. Some modern translations render the expression in this way. This interpretation also fits the broader New Testament association between death and sin: “The sting of death is sin” (1 Corinthians 15:56). On this reading, Christ's declaration in Matthew 16:18 is fundamentally a promise that death and the powers of evil will ultimately be defeated, rather than an explicit promise that an earthly institutional organization will remain continuously intact.		Accordingly, “the gates of Hades” can naturally be understood as a reference to the power of death. Some modern translations render the expression in this way. This interpretation also fits the broader New Testament association between death and sin: “The sting of death is sin” (1 Corinthians 15:56). On this reading, Christ's declaration in Matthew 16:18 is fundamentally a promise that death and the powers of evil will ultimately be defeated, rather than an explicit promise that an earthly institutional organization will remain continuously intact.

	This distinction has even been recognized by Catholic scholarship. Michael W. Winter, a former lecturer in ~~Fundamental Theology~~ at St. John's Seminary, observes in his defense of the papacy that “although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.”<ref>Michael W. Winter, ''Saint Peter and the Popes'' (Burns & Oates, 1960), 17.</ref>		This distinction has even been recognized by Catholic scholarship. Michael W. Winter, a former lecturer in [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theology fundamental theology] at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John%27s_Seminary_(Massachusetts) St. John's Seminary], observes in his defense of the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope papacy] that “although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.”<ref>Michael W. Winter, ''Saint Peter and the Popes'' (Burns & Oates, 1960), 17.</ref>

	The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ's descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ's death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from ''Amente''—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.<ref>“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, ''Coptic Homilies'' (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.</ref>		The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ's descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ's death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from ''Amente''—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.<ref>“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, ''Coptic Homilies'' (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.</ref>

SpencerMarsh at 16:24, 10 September 2026

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	====Scriptural Objections to the Great Apostasy====		====Scriptural Objections to the Great Apostasy====
	Christian apologists claim that the Church could never have been lost during the Great Apostasy because Jesus predicted that it would always remain on the earth. Some apologists claim that the Church was never lost based on a scripture from the book of Jude. Both claims are deficient for a few reasons.		Christian apologists claim that the Church could never have been lost during the Great Apostasy because Jesus predicted that it would always remain on the earth. Some apologists claim that the Church was never lost based on a scripture from the book of Jude. Both claims are deficient for a few reasons.<br><br>


	=====Matthew 16:18 — The Gates of Hell=====		=====Matthew 16:18 — The Gates of Hell=====
	Matthew 16:18 reads, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."		Matthew 16:18 reads, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
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	There is, however, another possible interpretation that is particularly interesting from a Latter-day Saint perspective. The Church might be represented symbolically as being overcome by the “gates of Hades” for a period but ultimately emerging from them. On this reading, Matthew 16:18 would not deny a future apostasy; instead, it could be understood as promising that death, Hades, and evil would not have the final victory over Christ's Church. The Restoration could therefore be viewed not as a ''denial'' of Christ's promise but as its ''fulfillment'': the Church could temporarily disappear as an earthly institution without ultimately being defeated.		There is, however, another possible interpretation that is particularly interesting from a Latter-day Saint perspective. The Church might be represented symbolically as being overcome by the “gates of Hades” for a period but ultimately emerging from them. On this reading, Matthew 16:18 would not deny a future apostasy; instead, it could be understood as promising that death, Hades, and evil would not have the final victory over Christ's Church. The Restoration could therefore be viewed not as a ''denial'' of Christ's promise but as its ''fulfillment'': the Church could temporarily disappear as an earthly institution without ultimately being defeated.

	Thus, Matthew 16:18 should not be treated as a straightforward proof that the Apostolic Church could never experience a widespread or complete apostasy. The passage promises that Christ's ''ekklesia'' will ultimately prevail over the powers of death and evil. It does not, at least on its face, specify that the institutional manifestation of that Church must remain continuously visible and doctrinally intact on earth throughout every subsequent generation.		Thus, Matthew 16:18 should not be treated as a straightforward proof that the Apostolic Church could never experience a widespread or complete apostasy. The passage promises that Christ's ''ekklesia'' will ultimately prevail over the powers of death and evil. It does not, at least on its face, specify that the institutional manifestation of that Church must remain continuously visible and doctrinally intact on earth throughout every subsequent generation.<br><br>


	=====Jude 1:3 — The Faith Delivered "Once for All" to the Saints?=====		=====Jude 1:3 — The Faith Delivered "Once for All" to the Saints?=====
	Jude 1:3 reads, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."		Jude 1:3 reads, "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."

SpencerMarsh at 16:24, 10 September 2026

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	====Scriptural Objections to the Great Apostasy====		====Scriptural Objections to the Great Apostasy====
	Christian apologists claim that the Church could never have been lost during the Great Apostasy because Jesus predicted that it would always remain on the earth. Some apologists claim that the Church was never lost based on a scripture from the book of Jude. Both claims are deficient for a few reasons.		Christian apologists claim that the Church could never have been lost during the Great Apostasy because Jesus predicted that it would always remain on the earth. Some apologists claim that the Church was never lost based on a scripture from the book of Jude. Both claims are deficient for a few reasons.


	=====Matthew 16:18 — The Gates of Hell=====		=====Matthew 16:18 — The Gates of Hell=====
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	Thus, Matthew 16:18 should not be treated as a straightforward proof that the Apostolic Church could never experience a widespread or complete apostasy. The passage promises that Christ's ''ekklesia'' will ultimately prevail over the powers of death and evil. It does not, at least on its face, specify that the institutional manifestation of that Church must remain continuously visible and doctrinally intact on earth throughout every subsequent generation.		Thus, Matthew 16:18 should not be treated as a straightforward proof that the Apostolic Church could never experience a widespread or complete apostasy. The passage promises that Christ's ''ekklesia'' will ultimately prevail over the powers of death and evil. It does not, at least on its face, specify that the institutional manifestation of that Church must remain continuously visible and doctrinally intact on earth throughout every subsequent generation.


	=====Jude 1:3 — The Faith Delivered "Once for All" to the Saints?=====		=====Jude 1:3 — The Faith Delivered "Once for All" to the Saints?=====

SpencerMarsh at 16:22, 10 September 2026

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	The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ's descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ's death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from ''Amente''—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.<ref>“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, ''Coptic Homilies'' (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.</ref>		The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ's descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ's death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from ''Amente''—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.<ref>“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, ''Coptic Homilies'' (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.</ref>

	This background makes it difficult to treat Matthew 16:18 as an unambiguous promise of uninterrupted institutional continuity. The “gates of Hades” are not naturally understood as a metaphor for competing ecclesiastical organizations attempting to destroy the Church. Rather, the imagery evokes death and the realm of the dead, against which Christ ultimately triumphs. ~~As Michael W. Winter notes~~, ~~the passage is better~~ understood as ~~promising~~ the ~~triumph~~ of ~~good over evil than simply~~ the ~~institutional immortality~~ of ~~the Church.<ref>Winter, ''Saint Peter~~ and ~~the Popes'', 17~~.~~</ref>~~		This background makes it difficult to treat Matthew 16:18 as an unambiguous promise of uninterrupted institutional continuity. The “gates of Hades” are not naturally understood as a metaphor for competing ecclesiastical organizations attempting to destroy the Church. Rather, the imagery evokes death and the realm of the dead, against which Christ ultimately triumphs. The powers of death will not triumph over the church (in this case, understood as the totality of loyal followers of Christ) because Christ will overcome the powers of death through His Atonement and Resurrection.

	There is, however, another possible interpretation that is particularly interesting from a Latter-day Saint perspective. The Church might be represented symbolically as being overcome by the “gates of Hades” for a period but ultimately emerging from them. On this reading, Matthew 16:18 would not deny a future apostasy; instead, it could be understood as promising that death, Hades, and evil would not have the final victory over Christ's Church. The Restoration could therefore be viewed not as a ''denial'' of Christ's promise but as its ''fulfillment'': the Church could temporarily disappear as an earthly institution without ultimately being defeated.		There is, however, another possible interpretation that is particularly interesting from a Latter-day Saint perspective. The Church might be represented symbolically as being overcome by the “gates of Hades” for a period but ultimately emerging from them. On this reading, Matthew 16:18 would not deny a future apostasy; instead, it could be understood as promising that death, Hades, and evil would not have the final victory over Christ's Church. The Restoration could therefore be viewed not as a ''denial'' of Christ's promise but as its ''fulfillment'': the Church could temporarily disappear as an earthly institution without ultimately being defeated.

SpencerMarsh at 16:19, 10 September 2026

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	Some Christian apologists claim this means that the earthly Church organization would never be taken away. That conclusion, however, depends in part upon what Jesus meant by “my church” and “the gates of hell.”<ref>Barry Robert Bickmore, ''Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity'', expanded and revised ed. (FairMormon, 2014), 48–49.</ref>		Some Christian apologists claim this means that the earthly Church organization would never be taken away. That conclusion, however, depends in part upon what Jesus meant by “my church” and “the gates of hell.”<ref>Barry Robert Bickmore, ''Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity'', expanded and revised ed. (FairMormon, 2014), 48–49.</ref>

	The Greek word translated “church” is ''ekklesia'', meaning an assembly or congregation. While the word can certainly refer to an organized body of believers, early Christian sources sometimes understood the Church in a much broader sense. For example, the early second-century ''Pastor of Hermas'' declares that the Church “was created first of all . . . and for her sake was the world made.”<ref>''Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2.4'', in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', vol. 2 (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885), 305.</ref> Likewise, 2 Clement states that “the books of the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.”<ref>''2 Clement'' 14:2, in Robert M. Grant, ed., ''The Apostolic Fathers'', vol. 2 (Thomas Nelson & Sons, 1964–1968), 126.</ref>		The Greek word translated “church” is ''ekklesia'', meaning an assembly or congregation. While the word can certainly refer to an organized body of believers, early Christian sources sometimes understood the Church in a much broader sense. For example, the early second-century [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shepherd_of_Hermas ''Pastor of Hermas''] declares that the Church “was created first of all . . . and for her sake was the world made.”<ref>''Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2.4'', in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., ''Ante-Nicene Fathers'', vol. 2 (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885), 305.</ref> Likewise, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Clement ''2 Clement''] states that “the books of the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.”<ref>''2 Clement'' 14:2, in Robert M. Grant, ed., ''The Apostolic Fathers'', vol. 2 (Thomas Nelson & Sons, 1964–1968), 126.</ref>

	This conception is consistent with New Testament passages that describe God's people in heavenly and eternal terms. Paul writes that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3–4), while Hebrews describes believers as having come “unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,” and “to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven” (Hebrews 12:22–23). On this understanding, the Church is not simply an earthly administrative institution. It encompasses God's covenant people and the heavenly assembly of the faithful. Consequently, even if Christ's organized Church were to disappear from the earth for a period of time, the broader reality of the Church would not thereby cease to exist.		This conception is consistent with New Testament passages that describe God's people in heavenly and eternal terms. Paul writes that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3–4), while Hebrews describes believers as having come “unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,” and “to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven” (Hebrews 12:22–23). On this understanding, the Church is not simply an earthly administrative institution. It encompasses God's covenant people and the heavenly assembly of the faithful. Consequently, even if Christ's organized Church were to disappear from the earth for a period of time, the broader reality of the Church would not thereby cease to exist.

SpencerMarsh at 16:15, 10 September 2026

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 Matthew 16:18 reads, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
-Some Christian apologists claim this means that the earthly Church organization would never be taken away. However, that interpretation runs into several problems.<ref>Barry Robert Bickmore, ''Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity'', expanded and revised ed. (FairMormon, 2014), 48–49.</ref>
+Some Christian apologists claim this means that the earthly Church organization would never be taken away. That conclusion, however, depends in part upon what Jesus meant by “my church” and “the gates of hell.”<ref>Barry Robert Bickmore, ''Restoring the Ancient Church: Joseph Smith and Early Christianity'', expanded and revised ed. (FairMormon, 2014), 48–49.</ref>
 =====Jude 1:3 — The Faith Delivered "Once for All" to the Saints?=====

SpencerMarsh at 15:30, 10 September 2026

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	Other apologists point to the word translated as “delivered”, ''paradothaysay'', and claim this indicates the faith was delievered only once in the past.<ref>Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine, ''Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons'' (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), 76.</ref> ''Paradothaysay'' is an ''aorist'' conjugation of the Greek verb ''paradidomi'': to deliver or hand over. "Aorist" means that the verb was initiated and completed once in the past.		Other apologists point to the word translated as “delivered”, ''paradothaysay'', and claim this indicates the faith was delievered only once in the past.<ref>Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine, ''Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons'' (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), 76.</ref> ''Paradothaysay'' is an ''aorist'' conjugation of the Greek verb ''paradidomi'': to deliver or hand over. "Aorist" means that the verb was initiated and completed once in the past.

	For the sake of argument, let's assume that the "once for all" translation is correct. It is ironic that any Christian apologist would use this verse. If their interpretation is true, it would mean that Jude's unique theology and that of any other New Testament book written after it ''cannot'' be considered inspired and authoritative. According to most current critical scholarship, this would include the books of 1 ~~John~~, 2 ~~John~~, ~~3 John~~, 1 ~~Timothy, Titus~~, 2 ~~Timothy~~, ~~Revelation~~, and ~~2 Peter~~.<ref>This line was written in 2026.</ref> The existence of these books, with their unique claims and theology, is evidence that ancient Christians did not view Jude’s claim the same way modern Christian apologists do. This interpretation confuses ''giving the faith'' and the ''public revelation'' of that faith. The passage affirms that Jesus gave the faith once for all to the Apostles. The Apostles were then given authority to receive public revelation—revelation on behalf of and binding on the entire human family—and declare their revelation to the rest of the human family. The passage affirms that the Saints should contend for that faith today. It does ''not'' affirm that the ''public revelation'' of that faith could not continue after the passage was written. It also does not affirm that the Saints could not apostatize from that faith.		For the sake of argument, let's assume that the "once for all" translation is correct. It is ironic that any Christian apologist would use this verse. If their interpretation is true, it would mean that Jude's unique theology and that of any other New Testament book written after it ''cannot'' be considered inspired and authoritative. According to most current critical scholarship, this would include the books of 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation.<ref>This line was written in 2026.</ref> The existence of these books, with their unique claims and theology, is evidence that ancient Christians did not view Jude’s claim the same way modern Christian apologists do. This interpretation confuses ''giving the faith'' and the ''public revelation'' of that faith. The passage affirms that Jesus gave the faith once for all to the Apostles. The Apostles were then given authority to receive public revelation—revelation on behalf of and binding on the entire human family—and declare their revelation to the rest of the human family. The passage affirms that the Saints should contend for that faith today. It does ''not'' affirm that the ''public revelation'' of that faith could not continue after the passage was written. It also does not affirm that the Saints could not apostatize from that faith.
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SpencerMarsh at 15:14, 10 September 2026

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	Some contend that "once" here means ''one and only one time''.<ref>Anthony A. Hoekema, ''The Four Major Cults'' (Paternoster Press, 1963), 33.</ref> This belief is reflected in the [https://biblehub.com/jude/1-3.htm vast majority of biblical translations]. For example, in the ''New International Version'' (NIV), Jude 1:3 reads, "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was ''once for all'' entrusted to God’s holy people" (emphasis added). The Greek term translated as "once" or "once for all" is ''hapax''. This term ''can'' mean simply "once," as the King James Version renders it.<ref>Johan Lust, Erik Eynikel, and Katrin Hauspie, ''A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint'', rev ed. (Stuttgart, 2003), s.v. "απαξ".</ref> If that is true, then the fact that the faith was delivered "once" in the past does not preclude the possibility of being revealed again in the future. The other verse in Jude that uses ''hapax'', Jude 1:5, does not support the "once for all" translation: "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once (''hapax'') knew this, how that the Lord having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."		Some contend that "once" here means ''one and only one time''.<ref>Anthony A. Hoekema, ''The Four Major Cults'' (Paternoster Press, 1963), 33.</ref> This belief is reflected in the [https://biblehub.com/jude/1-3.htm vast majority of biblical translations]. For example, in the ''New International Version'' (NIV), Jude 1:3 reads, "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was ''once for all'' entrusted to God’s holy people" (emphasis added). The Greek term translated as "once" or "once for all" is ''hapax''. This term ''can'' mean simply "once," as the King James Version renders it.<ref>Johan Lust, Erik Eynikel, and Katrin Hauspie, ''A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint'', rev ed. (Stuttgart, 2003), s.v. "απαξ".</ref> If that is true, then the fact that the faith was delivered "once" in the past does not preclude the possibility of being revealed again in the future. The other verse in Jude that uses ''hapax'', Jude 1:5, does not support the "once for all" translation: "I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once (''hapax'') knew this, how that the Lord having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not."

	Other apologists point to the word translated as “delivered”, ''paradothaysay'', and claim this indicates the faith was delievered only once in the past.<ref>Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine, ~~<i>~~Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons~~</i>~~ (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), 76.</ref> ''Paradothaysay'' is an ''aorist'' conjugation of the Greek verb ''paradidomi'': to deliver or hand over. "Aorist" means that the verb was initiated and completed once in the past.		Other apologists point to the word translated as “delivered”, ''paradothaysay'', and claim this indicates the faith was delievered only once in the past.<ref>Ron Rhodes and Marian Bodine, ''Reasoning from the Scriptures with the Mormons'' (Harvest House Publishers, 1995), 76.</ref> ''Paradothaysay'' is an ''aorist'' conjugation of the Greek verb ''paradidomi'': to deliver or hand over. "Aorist" means that the verb was initiated and completed once in the past.

	For the sake of argument, let's assume that the "once for all" translation is correct. It is ironic that any Christian apologist would use this verse. If their interpretation is true, it would mean that any New Testament book after ~~Jude is~~ ''~~not~~'' ~~part of the deposit of faith; the “faith delivered to the saints” by the Apostles~~. According to most current critical scholarship, this would include the books of 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, 1 Timothy, Titus, 2 Timothy, Revelation, and 2 Peter.<ref>This line was written in 2026.</ref> ~~These~~ books, ~~including~~ their unique claims and theology, ~~are~~ evidence that ancient Christians did not view Jude’s claim the same way modern ~~Protestant~~ apologists do. ~~Indeed, if this~~ interpretation ~~were true, it would mean that~~ ''~~Jude itself~~'' ~~should not be part~~ of ~~the New Testament books considered inspired and authoritative~~. The passage affirms that Jesus ~~delivered~~ the faith ''to the Apostles~~'' in~~ the ~~past once for all,~~ and that the Saints should contend for that faith today. It does ''not'' affirm that the ''public revelation'' of that faith could not continue after the passage was written. It also does not affirm that the Saints could not apostatize from that faith.		For the sake of argument, let's assume that the "once for all" translation is correct. It is ironic that any Christian apologist would use this verse. If their interpretation is true, it would mean that Jude's unique theology and that of any other New Testament book written after it ''cannot'' be considered inspired and authoritative. According to most current critical scholarship, this would include the books of 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, 1 Timothy, Titus, 2 Timothy, Revelation, and 2 Peter.<ref>This line was written in 2026.</ref> The existence of these books, with their unique claims and theology, is evidence that ancient Christians did not view Jude’s claim the same way modern Christian apologists do. This interpretation confuses ''giving the faith'' and the ''public revelation'' of that faith. The passage affirms that Jesus gave the faith once for all to the Apostles. The Apostles were then given authority to receive public revelation—revelation on behalf of and binding on the entire human family—and declare their revelation to the rest of the human family. The passage affirms that the Saints should contend for that faith today. It does ''not'' affirm that the ''public revelation'' of that faith could not continue after the passage was written. It also does not affirm that the Saints could not apostatize from that faith.
	</wt>		</wt>
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SpencerMarsh at 19:17, 8 September 2026

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	=====The Apostle John and the Three Nephites=====		=====The Apostle John and the Three Nephites=====
	Some have argued that Latter-day Saints do not truly believe that apostolic authority ceased on the earth since they also affirm that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites (who were ordained as members of the Twelve during Jesus's New World ministry) held such apostolic authority.		Some have argued that Latter-day Saints do not truly believe that apostolic authority ceased on the earth since they also affirm that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites (who were ordained as members of the Twelve during Jesus's New World ministry) held such apostolic authority and remained on the earth during the Great Apostasy.

	These men are now ''translated beings''. As Mark L. McConkie explained, "Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has 'translated' or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord."<ref>Mark L. McConkie, "[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings]," in ''Encyclopedia of Mormonism'', ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.</ref>		These men are now ''translated beings''. As Mark L. McConkie explained, "Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has 'translated' or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord."<ref>Mark L. McConkie, "[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings]," in ''Encyclopedia of Mormonism'', ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.</ref>
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	John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry <i>until I come</i>” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). John then appeared with Peter and James, with apostolic keys "committed" to them, to give those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).		John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry <i>until I come</i>” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). John then appeared with Peter and James, with apostolic keys "committed" to them, to give those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).

	The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto "all the people," uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:~~10–~~11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites' prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord's timetable in which the Three Nephites would again "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them" (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)		The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto "all the people," uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites' prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord's timetable in which the Three Nephites would again "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them" (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)

	John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not <i>exercise</i> that authority to administer the Church. This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a <i>custodial</i> loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a <i>practical</i> loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church. Allowing beings that ~~cannot~~ taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.		John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not <i>exercise</i> that authority to administer the Church. This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a <i>custodial</i> loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a <i>practical</i> loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.
	</wt>		</wt>
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SpencerMarsh at 18:56, 8 September 2026

2026-09-08T18:56:39Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:56, 8 September 2026
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	=====The Apostle John and the Three Nephites=====		=====The Apostle John and the Three Nephites=====
	Some have argued that Latter-day Saints do not truly believe that ~~Apostolic~~ authority ceased on the earth since ~~Latter-day Saints~~ also affirm that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites (who were ordained as members of the Twelve during Jesus's New World ministry) held such apostolic authority.		Some have argued that Latter-day Saints do not truly believe that apostolic authority ceased on the earth since they also affirm that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites (who were ordained as members of the Twelve during Jesus's New World ministry) held such apostolic authority.

	These men are now ''translated beings''. As Mark L. McConkie explained, "Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has 'translated' or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord."<ref>Mark L. McConkie, "[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings]," in ''Encyclopedia of Mormonism'', ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.</ref>		These men are now ''translated beings''. As Mark L. McConkie explained, "Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has 'translated' or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord."<ref>Mark L. McConkie, "[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings]," in ''Encyclopedia of Mormonism'', ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.</ref>
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	John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry <i>until I come</i>” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). John then appeared with Peter and James, with apostolic keys "committed" to them, to give those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).		John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry <i>until I come</i>” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). John then appeared with Peter and James, with apostolic keys "committed" to them, to give those keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).

	The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto "all the people," uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:10–11). ~~There were three~~ others ~~who~~ were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord took them away from the Nephites~~, though,~~ because of the Nephites' prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord's timetable in which the Three Nephites would again "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them" (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)		The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto "all the people," uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:10–11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites' prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord's timetable in which the Three Nephites would again "minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them" (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)

	John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not <i>exercise</i> that authority to administer the Church. This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a <i>custodial</i> loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a <i>practical</i> loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not ~~given permission~~ to restore and administer the Church. Allowing beings that cannot taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.		John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not <i>exercise</i> that authority to administer the Church. This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a <i>custodial</i> loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a <i>practical</i> loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church. Allowing beings that cannot taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.
	</wt>		</wt>
	}}		}}