Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction - Revision history

SpencerMarsh: Reverted edit by SpencerMarsh (talk) to last revision by GregSmith

2026-06-23T15:22:52Z

Reverted edit by SpencerMarsh (talk) to last revision by GregSmith

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:22, 23 June 2026
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{H1		{{Navigation:CES Letter}}
	~~\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction~~
	~~\|H=Response to "Letter to a CES Director~~: ~~Introduction"~~
	~~\|S=~~		{{Header}}
	~~\|L1=~~
	~~\|T=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]~~		Included below:
	~~\|A=Jeremy Runnells~~		*[[#Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."\|Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."]]
	~~\|<=[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''~~CES Letter~~'' Response Main Page]]~~		*[[#Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"\|Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"]]
	~~\|>=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]~~		*[[#Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"\|Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"]]
	}}
	~~<onlyinclude>~~
	{{H2
	~~\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction~~
	~~\|H=~~Response to ~~section~~ "~~Introduction"~~
	~~\|S=The author bizarrely dismisses FAIR~~ and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute ~~as "unofficial"~~ (~~and, by Runnells' implication, ''unacceptable''~~) ~~sources of answers~~. He also broaches a quote from Elder Marlin K. Jensen that is commonly misinterpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. He makes claims that might be taken to mean that Richard Bushman's book ''Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling'' unavoidably leads someone to losing their faith in Joseph Smith.
	\|~~L1=~~Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."
	~~\|D1=~~''~~CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	\|~~L2=~~Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"
	\|~~D2=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	~~\|L3=~~Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"
	~~\|D3=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	}}
	~~</onlyinclude>~~
	~~{{Back to top}}~~
	==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==		==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
Line 39:		Line 25:
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition		\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition
	\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.		\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.
	<br>		<br>
	Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:		Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:
	<br>		<br>
	:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”		:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”

	This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”		This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”
	}}		}}
	This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.		This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.
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	}}		}}

	~~{{FAIRAnalysisHeader~~
	~~\|title=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]~~
	~~\|author=Jeremy Runnells~~
	~~\|noauthor=~~
	~~\|section=Introduction~~
	~~\|previous=[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''CES Letter'' Response Main Page]]~~
	~~\|next=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]~~
	~~\|notes=~~
	}}
	~~{{Back to top}}~~
	<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->		<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->
	[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]		[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

SpencerMarsh at 15:22, 23 June 2026

2026-06-23T15:22:37Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:22, 23 June 2026
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{~~Navigation~~:CES Letter}}		{{H1
			\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction
			\|H=Response to "Letter to a CES Director: Introduction"
	{{~~Header}}~~		\|S=
			\|L1=
	~~Included below:~~		\|T=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]
	*[[#Response to ~~claim:~~ "~~It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon~~ and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (~~formerly FARMS~~)."\|Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."]]		\|A=Jeremy Runnells
	*[[#Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"\|~~Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are~~ '~~leaving in droves~~' ~~over Church history"]]~~		\|<=[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''CES Letter'' Response Main Page]]
	*[[#Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"\|~~Response~~ to ~~claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"]]~~		\|>=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]
			}}
			<onlyinclude>
			{{H2
			\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction
			\|H=Response to section "Introduction"
			\|S=The author bizarrely dismisses FAIR and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute as "unofficial" (and, by Runnells' implication, ''unacceptable'') sources of answers. He also broaches a quote from Elder Marlin K. Jensen that is commonly misinterpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. He makes claims that might be taken to mean that Richard Bushman's book ''Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling'' unavoidably leads someone to losing their faith in Joseph Smith.
			\|L1=Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."
			\|D1=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition
			\|L2=Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"
			\|D2=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition
			\|L3=Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"
			\|D3=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition
			}}
			</onlyinclude>
			{{Back to top}}
	==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==		==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
Line 25:		Line 39:
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition		\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition
	\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.		\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.
	<br>		<br>
	Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:		Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:
	<br>		<br>
	:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”		:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”

	This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”		This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”
	}}		}}
	This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.		This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.
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	}}		}}

			{{FAIRAnalysisHeader
			\|title=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]
			\|author=Jeremy Runnells
			\|noauthor=
			\|section=Introduction
			\|previous=[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''CES Letter'' Response Main Page]]
			\|next=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]
			\|notes=
			}}
			{{Back to top}}
	<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->		<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->
	[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]		[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

GregSmith: Bot, replaced: {{Navigation CES Letter}} → {{Navigation:CES Letter}]

2024-04-12T19:41:57Z

Bot, replaced: {{Navigation CES Letter}} → {{Navigation:CES Letter}]

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:41, 12 April 2024
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{Navigation CES Letter}}		{{Navigation:CES Letter}}


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	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
	\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition		\|title=CES Letter, October 2017 edition
	\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.		\|claim=In February of 2012, I was reading the news online when I came across the following news article: Mormonism Besieged by the Modern Age 1. In the article was information about a Q&A meeting at Utah State University that LDS Church Historian and General Authority, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, gave in late 2011. He was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are "leaving in droves" over Church history.
	<br>		<br>
	Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:		Elder Marlin K. Jensen’s response:
	<br>		<br>
	:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”		:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”

	This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”		This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”
	}}		}}
	This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.		This alleged quote from Elder Jensen often gets erroneously interpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. For full context and commentary, see [https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2013/01/15/reports-of-the-death-of-the-church-are-greatly-exaggerated Stephen Smoot's commentary on it] for the ''FAIR Blog''.

DavidSmith: updated header

2024-02-05T22:18:34Z

updated header

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:18, 5 February 2024
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{H1		{{Navigation CES Letter}}
	~~\|L=Detailed response to~~ CES Letter~~, Introduction~~
	~~\|H=Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction~~
	~~\|S=~~		{{Header}}
	~~\|L1=~~
	~~\|T=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]~~		Included below:
	~~\|A=Jeremy Runnells~~		*[[#Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."\|Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."]]
	~~\|<=~~[[~~Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''CES Letter''~~ Response ~~Main Page]]~~		*[[#Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"\|Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"]]
	~~\|>=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]~~		*[[#Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"\|Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"]]
	}}
	~~<onlyinclude>~~
	~~{{H2~~
	~~\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter~~ to ~~a CES Director/Introduction~~
	~~\|H=Response~~ to ~~section "Introduction"~~
	~~\|S=The author bizarrely dismisses FAIR~~ and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute ~~as "unofficial"~~ (~~and, by Runnells' implication, ''unacceptable''~~) ~~sources of answers~~. He also broaches a quote from Elder Marlin K. Jensen that is commonly misinterpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. He makes claims that might be taken to mean that Richard Bushman's book ''Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling'' unavoidably leads someone to losing their faith in Joseph Smith.
	\|~~L1=~~Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."
	~~\|D1=~~''~~CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	\|~~L2=~~Response to claim: "Elder Marlin K. Jensen...was asked his thoughts regarding the effects of Google on membership and people who are 'leaving in droves' over Church history"
	\|~~D2=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	~~\|L3=~~Response to claim: "I started...reading books like LDS historian and scholar Richard Bushman’s Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling"
	~~\|D3=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition~~
	}}
	~~</onlyinclude>~~
	~~{{Back to top}}~~
	==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==		==Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."==
	{{IndexClaimItemShort		{{IndexClaimItemShort
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	}}		}}

	~~{{FAIRAnalysisHeader~~
	~~\|title=[[../\|Letter to a CES Director]]~~
	~~\|author=Jeremy Runnells~~
	~~\|noauthor=~~
	~~\|section=Introduction~~
	~~\|previous=[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director\|''CES Letter'' Response Main Page]]~~
	~~\|next=[[../Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions\|Book of Mormon Concerns & Questions]]~~
	~~\|notes=~~
	}}
	~~{{Back to top}}~~
	<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->		<!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE -->
	[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]		[[Category:Letter to a CES Director]]

DavidSmith: header fix

2024-02-05T20:26:45Z

header fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:26, 5 February 2024
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L=CES Letter ~~detailed response~~, Introduction		\|L=Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction
	\|H=CES Letter ~~detailed response~~, Introduction		\|H=Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=

DavidSmith: DavidSmith moved page CES Letter detailed response, Introduction to Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction: clarifying title

2024-02-05T20:26:31Z

DavidSmith moved page CES Letter detailed response, Introduction to Detailed response to CES Letter, Introduction: clarifying title

← Older revision	Revision as of 20:26, 5 February 2024
(No difference)

DavidSmith: header fix

2024-02-05T20:26:03Z

header fix

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:26, 5 February 2024
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	{{FairMormon}}		{{FairMormon}}
	{{H1		{{H1
	\|L=~~Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/~~Letter ~~to a CES Director/~~Introduction		\|L=CES Letter detailed response, Introduction
	\|H=~~Response to "~~Letter ~~to a CES Director:~~ Introduction"		\|H=CES Letter detailed response, Introduction
	\|S=		\|S=
	\|L1=		\|L1=

DavidSmith: DavidSmith moved page Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction to CES Letter detailed response, Introduction: wiki update project

2024-02-05T20:24:41Z

DavidSmith moved page Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction to CES Letter detailed response, Introduction: wiki update project

← Older revision	Revision as of 20:24, 5 February 2024
(No difference)

SpencerMarsh at 05:22, 19 May 2023

2023-05-19T05:22:51Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:22, 19 May 2023
Line 44:		Line 44:
	<br>		<br>
	:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”		:“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of – I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now; largely over these issues...”
	~~<br>~~
	This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”		This truly shocked me. I didn’t understand what was going on or why people would leave “over history.”
	}}		}}

SpencerMarsh at 08:50, 18 May 2023

2023-05-18T08:50:37Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:50, 18 May 2023
Line 14:		Line 14:
	\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction		\|L=Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Introduction
	\|H=Response to section "Introduction"		\|H=Response to section "Introduction"
	\|S=The author ~~complains that~~ FAIR and ~~other apologetics sites are not~~ "~~official~~" sources of answers. He also broaches a quote from Marlin Jensen that is commonly misinterpreted. He makes claims that might be taken to ~~insinuate~~ that Richard Bushman's book Joseph Smith Rough Stone Rolling unavoidably leads someone to losing their faith in Joseph Smith.		\|S=The author bizarrely dismisses FAIR and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute as "unofficial" (and, by Runnells' implication, ''unacceptable'') sources of answers. He also broaches a quote from Elder Marlin K. Jensen that is commonly misinterpreted to mean that the Church is losing members left and right. He makes claims that might be taken to mean that Richard Bushman's book ''Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling'' unavoidably leads someone to losing their faith in Joseph Smith.
	\|L1=Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."		\|L1=Response to claim: "It is my hope that you’re going to have better answers than many of those given by unofficial apologists such as FairMormon and the Neal A. Maxwell Institute (formerly FARMS)."
	\|D1=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition		\|D1=''CES Letter'', October 2017 edition