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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Conflicts with Science
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Response to MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
| The Greek Psalter Incident | A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink, a work by author: Anonymous
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Tithing |
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
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- Response to claim: "the Church clearly teaches that story of Noah was a real event and it was a global flood"
- Response to claim: "The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
- Response to claim: "From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form"
- Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Dinosaurs were never alive on this earth, because there was no death before Adam"
- Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Evolution Did Not Happen"
- Response to claim: "Many of these Biblical traditions were believed as literal events....Adam and Eve were the first humans"
Response to claim: "the Church clearly teaches that story of Noah was a real event and it was a global flood"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
How much clearer can you get? The Ensign article makes it extremely clear what the LDS position is on Noah and the Flood. [The Ensign articles are all approved by the First Presidency and almost considered scripture.]
....
Even the LDS apologists acknowledge that the Church clearly teaches that story of Noah was a real event and it was a global flood.
Most scientists do not believe that any world-wide flood has occurred. There are serious questions about where all the water came from and went.
....
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources
There is a single Ensign article by BYU professor Donald W. Parry that describes the Flood of Noah as being global in scope. The critics insist that this must represent official Church doctrine because the Ensign is "almost considered scripture."However, if critics of the Church insist that one must accept an article by a BYU professor about a global flood as "almost scripture" just because it appeared in the Ensign, then the same standard must be applied to LDS anthropologist John L. Sorenson's two-part Ensign article in 1984 that describes a limited geography model for the Book of Mormon. You can't accept one without accepting the other.
The point of this exercise? All this really proves is that not everything that appears in the Ensign is "almost scripture." We accept the words of the prophets and apostles that appear in the Ensign as "scripture for our time," however, many other things appear in the Ensign from other authors, and these things do not define "the LDS position." Such is the case with both a "global flood" (Parry's article) or a local Book of Mormon geography (Sorenson's articles).
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Does the Church teach that the flood was a global event?
Church leaders typically treat the flood as global
Church leaders typically treat the flood as global. The challenge comes when Genesis is read as a scientific account. This reading is then contrasted with modern scientific data showing the diversity of plant and animal life, and the complete lack of evidence for a global flood in the geological or archaeological record.
The concept of a spherical earth did not appear in Jewish thought until the fourteenth or fifteenth century
The concept of a spherical earth "did not appear in Jewish thought until the fourteenth or fifteenth century." [1]:30 The word "earth," as used in the Bible, simply refers to solid ground or land, as opposed to water (see Genesis 1:10—"God called the dry land Earth; and...the waters called he Seas...."). It is, of course, possible that earlier prophets had a more advanced view of the nature of the earth—this perspective could, however, have been lost to later centuries and scribes.
| Related article: | How did ancient Israel picture the world and the universe? Summary: A spherical earth with stars and planets was not how Israel understood the world. Instead, they saw it as a flat disc, with an underworld beneath, and a rigid dome over top for the heavens. |
Some read these scriptures as describing the point of view of ancient prophets to whom the flood appeared global.
Genesis 7꞉19-23 reads:
- And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
For those who approach the matter in this way, the primary reason for seeing the flood as global comes from the word "earth." When modern readers see the word "earth," they envision the entire planetary sphere. Dr. Duane E. Jeffery elaborates:
A critical issue in the Flood story in the King James Bible has to do with translations of the Hebrew words eretz and adamah as meaning the entire "earth." What do these terms actually mean? It is widely recognized that Hebrew is a wonderful language for poets, since virtually every word has multiple meanings. But that same characteristic makes it a horrible language for precision. As it turns out, eretz and adamah can indeed be a geographical reference akin to what we usually mean by "the earth." But it is not at all clear that the ancients had the concept of a spherical planet that you and I do. Many scholars argue that the Bible writers thought in terms of a flat earth that was covered by a bowl-shaped firmament into which the windows of heaven were literally cut[1]:31-32
Jeffrey goes on to note that ideas of a global flood may have resulted from a widespread local problem. A current hypothesis that has been gaining ground since 1998 is that a significant flooding event occurred in the area now occupied by the Black Sea. Evidence has been discovered which has led a number of researchers to believe that the Black Sea area was once occupied by a completely isolated freshwater lake at a much lower level than the ocean. The theory is that the sea level rose and eventually broke through the Bosporus shelf, resulting in a rapid flooding event which would have wiped out all life living along the shores of the lake (see p. 34). Whether this is the source for the Genesis flood remains conjecture.
Thus, with this reading the prophets said and meant "the enitre world" but they had a quite different view of what the whole world entailed than we would.
What is genre?
The difficulty with the above, however, is that it reads ancient scripture to address questions that the scripture was probably never meant to address.
Those who study biblical and other texts often talk about the genre of a piece of writing. Genre describes the type of writing that is being studied.
One genre is history; another genre is fiction; another genre is poetry. Readers usually know what genre they are reading, and they adjust their expectations and their way of reading accordingly.
For example, if someone thought that the Lord of the Rings was in the history genre, they might consider it a terribly deceptive work. It describes events and powers for which we have no other evidence. If, however, the reader understands that its genre is fantasy fiction, then the reader expects different things.
Walter Moberly said:
You cannot put good questions and expect fruitful answers from a text apart from a grasp of the kind of material it is in the first place; misjudge the genre, and you may skew many of the things you try to do with the text.[2]
(The 1999 movie Galaxy Quest plays on this idea of mistaken genre—a group of aliens mistake the genre of a Star Trek-like television show. They refer to the show as "historical documents," and believe that the actors really are spacefarers on a spaceship.[3] This is an error of genre, and much of the movie's humor and plot is driven by the contrasts between the expectations of adventure fiction versus historical reality.)
What is "concordism"?
Modern Church leaders and members have sometimes read the flood story in the genre of what we might call "scientific history"—that is, they read it as a technical description of physical realities in a scientific context. This assumption is called concordism: "assumption that scripture is speaking in scientific terms, and therefore to be true and inspired, it has to match what science says."[4]
This assumption could be true—but it is an assumption, not an obvious truth as some treat it. (And, we must ask—since science in any form didn't really exist until the 1600s, and our modern science didn't really get going until the 1800s, why did God speak to ancient peoples in a form completely foreign to them? "[T]hese things were not in the mind of the authors of Genesis. That was not the audience, or the genre, or the spiritual needs they were speaking to."[4])
As John Walton, an evangelical bible scholar put it:
When we approach a text, we must be able to set our presuppositions off to the side as much as possible so that we do not impose them onto the text. It is not wrong to have presuppositions, but it is important to have a realistic grasp of what our presuppositions are so that we can assess their impact on our interpretation. Some of the traditions we carry as baggage are blind presuppositions…. We don’t even realize that they are imported into the text, and we must evaluate their relevance and truth rather than assume them to be accurate.[5]
What is the genre of the flood story?
So maybe we have the genre wrong. What if we are like the aliens who think Star Trek is science fact, not science fiction?
If ... you compare Genesis to other ancient Near Eastern creation and flood stories on the left side, Genesis looks very, very different. It makes a lot more sense and there’s much less conflict. This essentially establishes that comparing Genesis with science is comparing apples and oranges. It’s not a legitimate comparison to begin with, because it’s based on unjustified and anachronistic concordist assumptions.[4]
As it happens, "flood story" is a genre all of its own. The people who wrote and the people who heard the Old Testament had friends and neighbors with flood stories.
Every serious student of the Bible knows that there are other flood stories from the ancient Near East, particularly from ancient Sumer, Babylon, and Assyria.l What is disputed is not the existence and relevance of these ancient flood accounts but rather their significance and relationship to the biblical story. ...The general contours of the flood story as we hear it in the Eridu Genesis, Atrahasis, and the Gilgamesh Epic are very similar. Due to displeasure with humans, the divine realm decides to bring a flood against them to destroy them. In each case, the divine realm chooses one individual (Ziusudra, Atrahasis, Uta-napishti, Noah) to save by warning them of the coming flood and instructing them to build an ark. While the shape of the arks in the various stories differs, remarkably the floor space of the arks is nearly identical.1 After building the ark, the flood hero and others (family and in some cases even more people) as well as animals enter the ark. The flood waters rise and finally ebb to the point that the ark comes to rest. ...
As we begin, the reader should not jump to the conclusion that the identification of similarities suggests that the biblical author has borrowed information directly from the Mesopotamian accounts. Everyone in the ancient world knows there was a flood (just like everyone today knows there was a Holocaust). It is in the cultural river. The question is, what was God up to? Why did he send it? On this point, different texts may offer vastly different interpretations.[6]:53, 61-62
How does the message of the biblical flood story differ from that of the pagan cultures that surrounded it?
Walton continues:
The gods in the [Ancient Near East] were motivated by what can be called the "Great Symbiosis." ... [that is,] the gods created people because they were tired of the work involved to meet their own needs. Gods needed food, housing, clothing, and so on, but they did not want to work for it. Once people were created to serve in this way, it becomes necessary for the gods to provide for people (if there is no rain, crops cannot grow and the gods cannot be fed) and protect them (if they are being harried by invaders who steal their food or burn their crops, the gods cannot be cared for). Throughout the literature of the ancient world, we learn it is the mandate to provide for the gods that stands as the principal feature of their religious practice. Performance equals piety. Offense is failure to meet the needs of the gods. The result is codependence.
Not surprisingly, the Mesopotamian interpretation of the flood is based on the premise of this Great Symbiosis. The gods have not created people for relationship (as Yahweh [Jehovah] had done). The gods live among the people (in temples) so that the people can meet their needs, but they don't really like people—they need people. Yahweh, in contrast, has no needs and actually desires relationship. ...
The Great Symbiosis is consistently refuted in the Old Testament and has no role in the interpretation of the flood. In the Mesopotamian flood account the Great Symbiosis explains the actions of the gods at every turn. For them, the operation of the Great Symbiosis is the basis for order in the world. In the interpretation offered in Genesis, disruption of order is the driving idea, but order from the biblical standpoint has nothing to do with the Great Symbiosis. ... [6]:65-66
Instead of being about meeting the gods' needs, in the bible the flood occurs because of human violence and wickedness. Human behavior is preventing the covenant relationship that Yahweh/Jehovah wants to have with them.
This demonstrates how culture and genre should influence how we read scriptural texts:
Another way to think about the similarities and differences is to acknowledge that the Israelites are embedded in an ancient Near Eastern culture and that God speaks to them there. God gives them revelation that transcends the culture, but he speaks to them within the culture. This is not a matter of imposing the ancient Near East on the Bible (the Bible is an ANE literary document); rather, it involves the acknowledgment that they are within the ancient Near East. It's our responsibility to understand the flood story within its original context ...[6]:87-88
This idea should be a comfortable one for Latter-day Saints, since modern revelation insists that God speaks in the language and thought forms of his people. In the introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants (a book of modern revelation) the Lord says:
Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding. And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known; And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed; And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent; And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time (D&C 1꞉24-28 (emphasis added)).
In a sense, we might say that God always has to "dumb things down" for us! He speaks in our own language and way so we can understand, just as he spoke to ancient Israelites or ancient Nephites in their culture and language so they would understand.
Our mistake comes when we try to read texts written for them through our culture and language, rather than theirs.
What else can ancient near eastern culture teach us about the flood story?
In the Ancient Near East the world was understood to have been organized by God (or the gods) out of chaos. And chaos was represented by great roiling waters:
This particular judgment [the Flood] is so devastating that it has even been described as an act of uncreation. Going back to the very opening of Genesis, we read: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty [tohu wabohu], darkness was over the surface of the deep" (1:1-2). Before God brought the earth into functional order, it was "formless and empty." It is likely, if not certain, the author intends for us to think of the earth as undifferentiated water. From this formless and empty watery mass God creates a functional and livable earth. The flood, then, is a reversion to the watery mass, a tohu wabohu state. The pattern we have identified also explains the abundance of intertextual allusions in Genesis 9꞉1 and Genesis 1–2 as well as Genesis 9꞉18-29. We observe, then, that one way of reading Genesis 1–9 is along the lines of creation—uncreation—re-creation.[6]:103
For an ancient Israelite, then, the Flood story describes the destruction of God's ordered, created world because of human sin. The world can no longer fulfill its purpose as things stand. ("This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," [Moses 1꞉39].) A world everywhere full of sin, violence, and rebellion cannot fulfill God's purposes to exalt his children through a covenant relationship.
The Flood is a demonstration of God reestablishing the purpose and order of the world:
Genesis 1–11 is interested in tracking the issue of nonorder, order, and disorder. In this View, the flood account focuses more on how God is reestablishing a modicum of order in the world as he uses nonorder (the cosmic waters) to obliterate disorder (evil and violence). Of course, the flood does not totally obliterate disorder, as God acknowledges in Genesis 8꞉21. But it resets the ordering process, and God indicates that the established order will not again be reset by a flood (Genesis 8꞉21). This view focuses attention on God's continuing plan to establish order (present and future oriented) beyond the act of judging sin (past oriented), though both are legitimate perspectives. ...
When we interpret events like the flood, we should treat the event as we do with a character. What the narrator does with the flood is more important than what the flood does, and what God does through the flood is most important of all. If this is so, then we need to articulate persuasively what the narrator and God are doing through the flood.[6]:94-95
Does the New Testament tell us anything that can help?
Jesus uses the Flood account to give a similar sort of message. He is probably not particularly worried that his audience understand that the entire globe was submerged by water. That is not what they would have thought about. Instead, Jesus uses the Flood as an example of God's purposes for his children again being fulfilled—through him:
- As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. (Matthew 24꞉37-39)
The New Testament thus adopts the flood story as an illustration of the truth that our God is a God who judges sin. He does not tolerate disobedience, since he understands our propensity to promote ourselves above himself does not lead to our flourishing but to our detriment. In this it is used as an archetypal narrative for future eschatological judgment.[6]:98
Just as the Flood was God's way of reestablishing his purposes for the earth and his children, so Jesus' return in glory will likewise sweep away the things in the world that prevent the full blessing and exaltation of God's children.
What does the Flood story show us happening after the Flood?
If we agree that the Flood is about reestablishing God's purposes, then it is not surprising to see that the Flood is immediately followed by covenants:
The term covenant (berit) appears for the first time in connection with Noah. A covenant, as the English translation rightly implies, is a formal agreement between two parties. In this covenant, God commits himself to the continuance of the world and its inhabitants. Though the words are directed to Noah and his sons, that commitment is given not only to them but to all the creation and its creatures. They don't have to live in fear that God will periodically bring the creation to an end. ... Because this covenant is the first one explicitly mentioned in Scripture, the rainbow is the first sign of a covenant. Later we will see that circumcision is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant (Genesis 17꞉9-14), the sabbath is the sign of the Mosaic covenant (Exodus 31꞉12-18), and the Lord's Supper is the sign of the new covenant (Luke 22꞉20). These signs are like brands. They serve as a reminder to the covenant partners of the relationship established between them.[6]:104-105
Doesn't the Bible say that the continents were divided immediately after the Flood?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
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Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
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First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
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Some Latter-day Saint thinkers have understood the matter as referring to the sudden separation of the continents in a catastrophic event. Others have regarded this as a misunderstanding of the text
The Church has no official position, and it does not play much of a role in LDS thought or discourse.
Genesis 10꞉25 contains a passing reference to man called Peleg, who received his name because "in his days was the earth divided". The Hebrew verb פלג (palag) means "separate" or "divide." And, in Psalms 55꞉9 it refers specifically to a division of languages.
Some Latter-day Saints have interpreted this passage with extreme literalness
Some Latter-day Saints have interpreted this passage with extreme literalness, believing that the earth's tectonic plates, which were once a single land mass, all separated into the continents we know today during the life of a single mortal, instead of over hundreds of millions of years as scientists have theorized. Two of these were Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie.
At least a few leaders of the Church have been of this view that the continents were divided during or after the Flood
Prominently, prior to becoming president of the Church, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote that
in the beginning all of the land surface was in one place as it was in the days of Peleg, (Genesis 10:25.) that the earth was divided. Some Bible commentators have concluded that this division was one concerning the migrations of the inhabitants of the earth between them, but this is not the case. While this is but a very brief statement, yet it speaks of a most important event. The dividing of the earth was not an act of division by the inhabitants of the earth by tribes and peoples, but a breaking asunder of the continents, thus dividing the land surface and creating the Eastern Hemisphere and Western Hemisphere.[1]
John Taylor also expressed similar views, albeit more briefly.[2] It is perhaps important to note that then-Elder Smith wrote that "By looking at a wall map of the world, you will discover how the land surface along the northern and southern coast of the American Hemisphere and Europe and Africa has the appearance of having been together at one time." [3] Elder Smith was writing between 1953 and 1966; modern continental drift theory was only beginning to gain acceptance during this period (even by 1977, a geology textbook would note that "a poll of geologists now would probably show a substantial majority who favor the idea of drift," while also providing a substantial critique of the theory.[4]
Here again, however, we are at risk of mistaking genre. Elder Smith was reading with modern concerns and preoccupations.
What if we again tried to read as someone in the ancient near east might read?
Scriptures that refer to the earth being "divided" refer to groups of people being separated
A few scriptures, then, refer to the earth being divided:
- Genesis 10:25 and 1 Chronicles 1:19: And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of the one was Peleg; because in his days the earth was divided: and his brother’s name was Joktan.
- D&C 133꞉24: And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.
What do these extensive genealogies at this point in the story tell us?
In perhaps the most important study of Old Testament genealogies in the light of ANE analogues, Robert R. Wilson concluded that
- genealogies are not normally created for historical purposes. They are not intended to be strictly historical records. Rather in the Bible, as well as in the ancient Near Eastern literature and in the anthropological material, genealogies seem to have been created for domestic, political- jural, and religious purposes, and historical information is preserved in the genealogies only incidentally.
They are designed to give people an understanding of their identity. ... [G]enealogies, while including lists of real people in a real past, are first and foremost making theological statements ... .
After the flood, humans continue to sin (Genesis 11꞉21-29). People unite to build a city and a tower that offends God ...
God thus initiates a new strategy of carrying out his plans and purposes beginning with this one man and his wife, Sarah; through their descendants he will reach the world in order to restore blessing on his human creatures.
Notice the dramatic change in the narrative at this point. Whereas the primeval narrative covers the whole world over what must be an incredibly long period of time, now the focus in the second part, the patriarchal narratives, focuses on one individual— Abraham, then Jacob, then Joseph—and devotes considerable narrative space to a relatively short period of time. We observe that such a shift signals a more intense interest in the details of the events associated with the patriarchs as founding figures of the people of God.[5]:104-105, 110
There is no serious biblical scholarship that reads these verses as implying a rapid drift of the continents
The verses in Genesis and 1 Chronicles are describing the descendants of Shem. LDS scholar Hugh Nibley viewed Genesis 10꞉25 (which says that in the days of Peleg "the earth was divided") as meaning "the earth was divided among the children of Noah."[6] There is no serious biblical scholarship that reads these verses as implying a rapid drift of the continents—partly because such an idea would have been utterly foreign to writers in that time period.
Additional problems
If we read outside of genre and try to turn this into a scientific account, we run into enormous absurdities. Some conclude that this means the bible must be false, but instead it means they are making a genre mistake.
In the December 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake, 1,000 miles of fault line slipped 50 feet, resulting in a 9.3-magnitude earthquake that created seismic sea waves up to 100 feet high. These tsunamis caused the deaths of nearly 230,000 people. The amount of force required to move the major continents thousands of miles apart in the lifetime of a single individual would cause much worse devastation, a global catastrophe on an unimaginable scale.
Thus, to accomplish this without a divine miracle which hid all trace of such an event would be extraordinarily unlikely. But, such a miracle cannot be proven or identified by science or observation.
Those who choose to believe that this is what happen can only rely on faith.
Conclusion—Peleg
If the division is instead one of language, then D&C 133꞉22–23 would refer to the return to a time when languages no longer divide humankind. This will take place during the 1,000 years of peace when the Savior reigns.
Such a return to unity might also symbolize the passing of all the temporary, petty, and earthly matters which alienate humans from each other.
This seems a far more important idea, and a far more likely issue to discuss with bronze age Israelites, than continental drift.
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Notes
- ↑ Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1957–1966), 5:73. ISBN 1573454400. GospeLink
- ↑ John Taylor, Government of God (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1852), 110.off-site
- ↑ Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 5 vols., (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, 1957–1966), 5:73. ISBN 1573454400. GospeLink For essentially the same argument, see also 4:22; Church History and Modern Revelation (1947), 2:35; and Man: His Origin and Destiny (1954), 385, 421–422. Note that these sources are all even earlier, and likewise predate modern continental drift data and theory. President David O. McKay was clear on multiple occasions that the latter volume represented only President Smith's personal opinions, and were not Church doctrine (see here and here).
- ↑ Richard A. Davis, Principles of Oceanography, 2nd edition, (Addison-Wesley, 1977), ISBN 0201014645. For more on continental drift theory's history and development, see wikipedia.org off-site.
- ↑ Tremper Longman III and John H. Walton, The Lost World of the Flood: Mythology, Theology, and the Deluge Debate (IVP Academic, 2018).
- ↑ [citation needed]
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Response to claim: "The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources
The Book of Abraham does not state that the sun "gets it light from Kolob," and it is certainly not disputing the notion that photons are emitted from the Sun. The term "light" is used metaphorically, not literally. The October 2014 revision of the "Letter to a CES Director" modifies this claim slightly: "Facsimile 2, Figure #5 states the sun receives its “light from the revolutions of Kolob.” We now know that the process of nuclear fusion is what makes the stars and suns shine. With the discovery of quantum mechanics, scientists learned that the sun’s source of energy is internal, and not external. The sun shines because of thermonuclear fusion; not because it gets its light from any other star as claimed by the Book of Abraham." Regardless of the modification, the Book of Abraham is still not claiming that the sun "gets its light" in the form of photons "from any other star."
Question: What is the light which comes from the presence of God?
The Book of Abraham speaks of "light" which is "borrowed" from Kolob, which is a "governing power" over other planets
Joseph Smith provided this explanation in Book of Abraham, Facsimile 2, Figure 5:
one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions.
Kolob is said to be the planet nearest to the throne of God, "which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest." Abraham 3꞉9. The light and power of God extend from his throne to govern all things in the universe.
The light of Christ is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the light of the stars
7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.
8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;
9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;
10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.
The light of Christ proceeds from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space, and governs all things
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.
Question: Does the Book of Abraham state that the sun gets its photons from Kolob?
Pearl of Great Price Central, Insight #15: Abrahamic Astronomy
The Book of Abraham's reference to "light" is not referring to photons leaving the surface of the sun
The explanation for Facsimile 2, Figure 5 states that the Sun is said to "borrow it light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash":
Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.
These verses from Abraham admit a variety of interpretations. The suggestion that Abraham must have taught that the photons leaving the surface of the sun originally came from Kolob is completely unjustified.
A figurative and abstract description such as this cannot be forced into conformance with science
There are many scriptures or statements by the prophets that seem to have scientific implications. Unfortunately, they are never couched in modern scientific terms and their meanings are often very obscure. So it is hard to decide who is more foolish — the faithful saint, who interprets them in a way that forces them into agreement with some current view of science, or the faithless critic, who purposely interprets them in a way that is most at odds with current scientific thought. The Book of Abraham quote cited in the criticism above has inspired both kinds of nonsense, including the interpretation found on the web site where this criticism appeared. The wording of Joseph Smith’s explanation of Figure 5 in Facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham is, in fact, very difficult to interpret.
To “borrow” means to receive with the intention of returning
First, to “borrow” means to receive with the intention of returning, especially said of a material object or substance. It may also mean to take and adopt as one’s own, especially said of abstractions or ideas, as in “the composer borrowed his harmonic structure from Bach’s Fugue in D Major.” So what does it mean for the sun to “borrow” its light from Kolob? Is light a material or an abstraction? Does the Sun intend to repay the light it borrowed?
"This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made"
What, in fact, is meant by 'light' in this context? Doctrine & Covenants 88:7–13, in wording strongly reminiscent of our Book of Abraham quote, states “7 ...this is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made. 8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made; 9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made; 10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand. 11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; 12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space — 13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things (emphasis added).” These verses are clearly NOT talking about electromagnetic radiation. Does anyone have a convincing explanation of what they ARE talking about?
A “medium” can mean a material through which some signal propagates or a means or channel through which something is achieved
A “medium” can mean a material through which some signal propagates or a means or channel through which something is achieved. What does it mean here? Does it refer to a material or a means?
What is the "grand Key" called "Kae-e-vanrash"?
What is Kae-e-vanrash? The Book of Abraham says that it is a “grand Key,” or “governing power.” What does that mean? Is Kae-e-vanrash a term for nuclear reactions, gravitation, cosmic rays? Or is it a more spiritual medium such as priesthood or faith, or an organizational structure, or a means used for administrative communications?
This may have been a way to teach the Egyptians that Elohim, who dwells near Kolob, rules over than the sun-god, Amen-Re
And, finally, what are we to understand about the nature of Book of Abraham astronomy? Is it a revelation from God to Abraham explaining the structure of the universe as it would be seen by the astronomers of our day? Or should we remember that “The Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt, that ye may declare all these words.” Abraham 3:15, so that, as John Gee has suggested [1], this is simply the teaching that would be easiest for the Egyptians to understand — one that would teach them that Elohim, who dwells near Kolob, rules over than the sun-god, Amen-Re?
Abraham did not teach the Egyptians that photons leaving the Sun came from Kolob
Until someone can make a convincing case that their interpretation of these things is the only reasonable one, any faith-promoting proof from Abraham’s astronomy is a flimsy house of cards and any faith-destroying attack on some straw-man interpretation is misguided. Among the misguided interpretations is the unjustified suggestion that Abraham taught that the photons leaving the surface of the sun originally came from Kolob.
Response to claim: "From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
The fossils of animals and plants that have lived and died on this earth are thousands and millions of years old. From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim is based upon correct information - The author is providing knowledge concerning some particular fact, subject, or event
As far as we are aware, nobody in the Church disputes this.
Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
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Reliability of the Bible |
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Creation |
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Genesis |
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Understanding the Bible |
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Cultural issues |
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The Bible and the Book of Mormon |
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What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
Lehi said that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created"
The LDS Bible Dictionary states that, "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). 2 Nephi 2꞉22 describes how Adam and Eve became subject to physical death, when the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi taught that
if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. (2 Nephi 2꞉22)
Because this is the only scripture that indicates this, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of "all things." Does it mean "all things in the garden", or "all things on the entire earth", or something else?
The second scripture referenced, Moses 6꞉48, describes how "spiritual death" entered the world:
Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2꞉22
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from Gospel Principles manual, page 28:
| 1979 Gospel Principles | 2014 Gospel Principles | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Adam and Eve were foreordained to become the parents of the human race. | Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. | Instead of being the "parents of the human race," Adam and Eve are now "our first parents." We are only concerned with Adam. |
| She was called Eve because she was the mother of all living (see Moses 4꞉26) | Eve was "the mother of all living" (Moses 4꞉26) | The phrase "mother of all living" is now in quotes to indicate a direct quote from Moses 4꞉26. |
| She was given to Adam because God said "that is was not good that man should be alone." | God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage because "it was not good that the man should be alone." | |
| When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. | When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2꞉23). There was no death. | Again, the text is changed to indicate that scripture is being quoted. The original statement that they "were not able to have children" is changed to the scriptural statement that they "would have had no children." The specific reason why they would not have had children is not indicated, whereas previously it was stated that they were incapable of having children in their "pre-Fall" state. |
| God commanded them to have children and learn to control the earth. | God commanded them to have children. | The assumption that Adam and Eve were in "control" of the entire earth has been completely removed. |
| Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world as we now know it. | Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. | The assumption that the world outside the garden was "as we now know it" has been completely removed. |
More recently, in 2016 the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era:
There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, "for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family. (emphasis added)" [2]
Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
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Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
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First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
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References |
Notes
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There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years. For example, oil deposits are formed from the decomposed remains of ancient plants and animals.
This is where some accounts of Church teachings appear to contradict science, since many Latter-day Saint leaders and Church manuals have taught that there was no physical death on the entire earth prior to the fall of Adam.
No death anywhere?
This interpretation has been shared by many Church authors, including President Joseph Fielding Smith and Elder Bruce R. McConkie.[1] Consequently, the concept of no death before the Fall on the entire earth has made its way into many Church instructional manuals. For example, the LDS Bible Dictionary, which was included as an addition to the LDS edition of the King James Bible in 1979, includes the following statement that "death entered the world" as a result of the Fall:
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). [2]
The current edition of the Bible Dictionary, however, has a lightly edited entry "Fall of Adam":
|
|
Note that some aspects focus the death upon Adam and Eve.
There are other aspects that could be read to imply a wider impact (esp., "the whole creation fell and became mortal".)
Death for other created things?
Other leaders have seen pre-Fall death of plants and/or animals as compatible with LDS doctrine, with the doctrine of "no death" applying only to Adam and Eve within the garden, and not the wider physical creation.
The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.
Bible Dictionary editor Elder McConkie pointed out—the Bible Dictionary is neither infallible, nor an arbiter of Church doctrine:
[As for the] "Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only." [4]
The Bible Dictionary itself also cautions against assuming that its contents reflect "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth." [5]
One must also not overlook an earlier debate on the issue of "pre-Adamites" between Elder Brigham H. Roberts of the Seventy and then-Elder Joseph Fielding Smith was brought to an end at the instruction of the First Presidency. Part of the debate centered around whether there was death prior to the Fall. At the request of the First Presidency, Elder James E. Talmage gave a talk in the tabernacle, entitled "The Earth and Man." In it, he spoke of fossilized animals and plants and said:
These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation.
With the approval of the First Presidency, this address was published in the Deseret News, as a Church pamphlet, and later in The Instructor.[6] Clearly, then, a universal lack of death prior to the fall is not a necessary belief within the Church, since leaders and members have held both positions.
Elder Talmage's position was made quite clear in a letter he wrote in response to a question about these matters:
I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time. [7]
The First Presidency eventually instructed the general authorities:
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race. [8]
Reflecting on this episode, Elder Talmage wrote in his diary:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [9]
Elder Jeffery R. Holland notes that there was no human death on the earth prior to the Fall of Adam
Elder Jeffery R. Holland, at the April 2015 General Conference, stated,
[T]here was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.
I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. [10]
What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
The "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" is excluded from the period of the Earth's "temporal existence"
The following is from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 167-171, "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation." off-site
D&C 77꞉6-7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?
"‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity." (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.) (emphasis added)
The manual specifically excludes the "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" from the period defined as the Earth's "temporal existence." Nothing is implied or stated regarding "death before the Fall."
Notes
- ↑ For a representative sample of the non-official statements made by Elder McConkie and others from a variety of perspectives, see here.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Death," 655, 1979 and current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Fall of Adam and Eve," 655, current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, cited in Mark McConkie (editor), Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1989), 289–290 (emphasis added). ISBN 0884946444. ISBN 978-0884946441.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Introduction," 599. off-site
- ↑ James E. Talmage, "The Earth and Man," Address in the Tabernacle, (9 August 1931); originally published in the Deseret News, 21 Nov 1931; subsequently published as a pamphlet by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1931; later published in The Instructor, 100:12 (December 1965) :474–477; continued in The Instructor 101:1 (January 1966): 9–15. FAIRWiki link
- ↑ Talmage to Heber Timothy, 28 Jan. 1932, Talmage Papers; cited in Richard Sherlock, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Responses to the Darwinist Legacy," Journal of Mormon History 4:? (1975): 45–69.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Jeffery R. Holland, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet," April 2015 General Conference.
Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
|
Reliability of the Bible |
|
Creation |
|
Genesis |
|
Understanding the Bible |
|
Cultural issues |
|
The Bible and the Book of Mormon |
|
What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
Lehi said that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created"
The LDS Bible Dictionary states that, "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). 2 Nephi 2꞉22 describes how Adam and Eve became subject to physical death, when the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi taught that
if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. (2 Nephi 2꞉22)
Because this is the only scripture that indicates this, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of "all things." Does it mean "all things in the garden", or "all things on the entire earth", or something else?
The second scripture referenced, Moses 6꞉48, describes how "spiritual death" entered the world:
Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2꞉22
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from Gospel Principles manual, page 28:
| 1979 Gospel Principles | 2014 Gospel Principles | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Adam and Eve were foreordained to become the parents of the human race. | Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. | Instead of being the "parents of the human race," Adam and Eve are now "our first parents." We are only concerned with Adam. |
| She was called Eve because she was the mother of all living (see Moses 4꞉26) | Eve was "the mother of all living" (Moses 4꞉26) | The phrase "mother of all living" is now in quotes to indicate a direct quote from Moses 4꞉26. |
| She was given to Adam because God said "that is was not good that man should be alone." | God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage because "it was not good that the man should be alone." | |
| When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. | When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2꞉23). There was no death. | Again, the text is changed to indicate that scripture is being quoted. The original statement that they "were not able to have children" is changed to the scriptural statement that they "would have had no children." The specific reason why they would not have had children is not indicated, whereas previously it was stated that they were incapable of having children in their "pre-Fall" state. |
| God commanded them to have children and learn to control the earth. | God commanded them to have children. | The assumption that Adam and Eve were in "control" of the entire earth has been completely removed. |
| Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world as we now know it. | Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. | The assumption that the world outside the garden was "as we now know it" has been completely removed. |
More recently, in 2016 the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era:
There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, "for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family. (emphasis added)" [1]
Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
|
Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
|
First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
|
References |
Notes
|
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years. For example, oil deposits are formed from the decomposed remains of ancient plants and animals.
This is where some accounts of Church teachings appear to contradict science, since many Latter-day Saint leaders and Church manuals have taught that there was no physical death on the entire earth prior to the fall of Adam.
No death anywhere?
This interpretation has been shared by many Church authors, including President Joseph Fielding Smith and Elder Bruce R. McConkie.[1] Consequently, the concept of no death before the Fall on the entire earth has made its way into many Church instructional manuals. For example, the LDS Bible Dictionary, which was included as an addition to the LDS edition of the King James Bible in 1979, includes the following statement that "death entered the world" as a result of the Fall:
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). [2]
The current edition of the Bible Dictionary, however, has a lightly edited entry "Fall of Adam":
|
|
Note that some aspects focus the death upon Adam and Eve.
There are other aspects that could be read to imply a wider impact (esp., "the whole creation fell and became mortal".)
Death for other created things?
Other leaders have seen pre-Fall death of plants and/or animals as compatible with LDS doctrine, with the doctrine of "no death" applying only to Adam and Eve within the garden, and not the wider physical creation.
The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.
Bible Dictionary editor Elder McConkie pointed out—the Bible Dictionary is neither infallible, nor an arbiter of Church doctrine:
[As for the] "Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only." [4]
The Bible Dictionary itself also cautions against assuming that its contents reflect "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth." [5]
One must also not overlook an earlier debate on the issue of "pre-Adamites" between Elder Brigham H. Roberts of the Seventy and then-Elder Joseph Fielding Smith was brought to an end at the instruction of the First Presidency. Part of the debate centered around whether there was death prior to the Fall. At the request of the First Presidency, Elder James E. Talmage gave a talk in the tabernacle, entitled "The Earth and Man." In it, he spoke of fossilized animals and plants and said:
These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation.
With the approval of the First Presidency, this address was published in the Deseret News, as a Church pamphlet, and later in The Instructor.[6] Clearly, then, a universal lack of death prior to the fall is not a necessary belief within the Church, since leaders and members have held both positions.
Elder Talmage's position was made quite clear in a letter he wrote in response to a question about these matters:
I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time. [7]
The First Presidency eventually instructed the general authorities:
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race. [8]
Reflecting on this episode, Elder Talmage wrote in his diary:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [9]
Elder Jeffery R. Holland notes that there was no human death on the earth prior to the Fall of Adam
Elder Jeffery R. Holland, at the April 2015 General Conference, stated,
[T]here was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.
I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. [10]
What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
The "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" is excluded from the period of the Earth's "temporal existence"
The following is from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 167-171, "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation." off-site
D&C 77꞉6-7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?
"‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity." (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.) (emphasis added)
The manual specifically excludes the "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" from the period defined as the Earth's "temporal existence." Nothing is implied or stated regarding "death before the Fall."
Notes
- ↑ For a representative sample of the non-official statements made by Elder McConkie and others from a variety of perspectives, see here.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Death," 655, 1979 and current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Fall of Adam and Eve," 655, current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, cited in Mark McConkie (editor), Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1989), 289–290 (emphasis added). ISBN 0884946444. ISBN 978-0884946441.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Introduction," 599. off-site
- ↑ James E. Talmage, "The Earth and Man," Address in the Tabernacle, (9 August 1931); originally published in the Deseret News, 21 Nov 1931; subsequently published as a pamphlet by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1931; later published in The Instructor, 100:12 (December 1965) :474–477; continued in The Instructor 101:1 (January 1966): 9–15. FAIRWiki link
- ↑ Talmage to Heber Timothy, 28 Jan. 1932, Talmage Papers; cited in Richard Sherlock, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Responses to the Darwinist Legacy," Journal of Mormon History 4:? (1975): 45–69.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Jeffery R. Holland, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet," April 2015 General Conference.
Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
|
Reliability of the Bible |
|
Creation |
|
Genesis |
|
Understanding the Bible |
|
Cultural issues |
|
The Bible and the Book of Mormon |
|
What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
Lehi said that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created"
The LDS Bible Dictionary states that, "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). 2 Nephi 2꞉22 describes how Adam and Eve became subject to physical death, when the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi taught that
if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. (2 Nephi 2꞉22)
Because this is the only scripture that indicates this, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of "all things." Does it mean "all things in the garden", or "all things on the entire earth", or something else?
The second scripture referenced, Moses 6꞉48, describes how "spiritual death" entered the world:
Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2꞉22
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from Gospel Principles manual, page 28:
| 1979 Gospel Principles | 2014 Gospel Principles | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Adam and Eve were foreordained to become the parents of the human race. | Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. | Instead of being the "parents of the human race," Adam and Eve are now "our first parents." We are only concerned with Adam. |
| She was called Eve because she was the mother of all living (see Moses 4꞉26) | Eve was "the mother of all living" (Moses 4꞉26) | The phrase "mother of all living" is now in quotes to indicate a direct quote from Moses 4꞉26. |
| She was given to Adam because God said "that is was not good that man should be alone." | God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage because "it was not good that the man should be alone." | |
| When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. | When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2꞉23). There was no death. | Again, the text is changed to indicate that scripture is being quoted. The original statement that they "were not able to have children" is changed to the scriptural statement that they "would have had no children." The specific reason why they would not have had children is not indicated, whereas previously it was stated that they were incapable of having children in their "pre-Fall" state. |
| God commanded them to have children and learn to control the earth. | God commanded them to have children. | The assumption that Adam and Eve were in "control" of the entire earth has been completely removed. |
| Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world as we now know it. | Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. | The assumption that the world outside the garden was "as we now know it" has been completely removed. |
More recently, in 2016 the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era:
There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, "for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family. (emphasis added)" [1]
Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
|
Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
|
First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
|
References |
Notes
|
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years. For example, oil deposits are formed from the decomposed remains of ancient plants and animals.
This is where some accounts of Church teachings appear to contradict science, since many Latter-day Saint leaders and Church manuals have taught that there was no physical death on the entire earth prior to the fall of Adam.
No death anywhere?
This interpretation has been shared by many Church authors, including President Joseph Fielding Smith and Elder Bruce R. McConkie.[1] Consequently, the concept of no death before the Fall on the entire earth has made its way into many Church instructional manuals. For example, the LDS Bible Dictionary, which was included as an addition to the LDS edition of the King James Bible in 1979, includes the following statement that "death entered the world" as a result of the Fall:
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). [2]
The current edition of the Bible Dictionary, however, has a lightly edited entry "Fall of Adam":
|
|
Note that some aspects focus the death upon Adam and Eve.
There are other aspects that could be read to imply a wider impact (esp., "the whole creation fell and became mortal".)
Death for other created things?
Other leaders have seen pre-Fall death of plants and/or animals as compatible with LDS doctrine, with the doctrine of "no death" applying only to Adam and Eve within the garden, and not the wider physical creation.
The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.
Bible Dictionary editor Elder McConkie pointed out—the Bible Dictionary is neither infallible, nor an arbiter of Church doctrine:
[As for the] "Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only." [4]
The Bible Dictionary itself also cautions against assuming that its contents reflect "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth." [5]
One must also not overlook an earlier debate on the issue of "pre-Adamites" between Elder Brigham H. Roberts of the Seventy and then-Elder Joseph Fielding Smith was brought to an end at the instruction of the First Presidency. Part of the debate centered around whether there was death prior to the Fall. At the request of the First Presidency, Elder James E. Talmage gave a talk in the tabernacle, entitled "The Earth and Man." In it, he spoke of fossilized animals and plants and said:
These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation.
With the approval of the First Presidency, this address was published in the Deseret News, as a Church pamphlet, and later in The Instructor.[6] Clearly, then, a universal lack of death prior to the fall is not a necessary belief within the Church, since leaders and members have held both positions.
Elder Talmage's position was made quite clear in a letter he wrote in response to a question about these matters:
I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time. [7]
The First Presidency eventually instructed the general authorities:
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race. [8]
Reflecting on this episode, Elder Talmage wrote in his diary:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [9]
Elder Jeffery R. Holland notes that there was no human death on the earth prior to the Fall of Adam
Elder Jeffery R. Holland, at the April 2015 General Conference, stated,
[T]here was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.
I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. [10]
What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
The "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" is excluded from the period of the Earth's "temporal existence"
The following is from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 167-171, "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation." off-site
D&C 77꞉6-7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?
"‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity." (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.) (emphasis added)
The manual specifically excludes the "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" from the period defined as the Earth's "temporal existence." Nothing is implied or stated regarding "death before the Fall."
Notes
- ↑ For a representative sample of the non-official statements made by Elder McConkie and others from a variety of perspectives, see here.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Death," 655, 1979 and current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Fall of Adam and Eve," 655, current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, cited in Mark McConkie (editor), Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1989), 289–290 (emphasis added). ISBN 0884946444. ISBN 978-0884946441.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Introduction," 599. off-site
- ↑ James E. Talmage, "The Earth and Man," Address in the Tabernacle, (9 August 1931); originally published in the Deseret News, 21 Nov 1931; subsequently published as a pamphlet by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1931; later published in The Instructor, 100:12 (December 1965) :474–477; continued in The Instructor 101:1 (January 1966): 9–15. FAIRWiki link
- ↑ Talmage to Heber Timothy, 28 Jan. 1932, Talmage Papers; cited in Richard Sherlock, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Responses to the Darwinist Legacy," Journal of Mormon History 4:? (1975): 45–69.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Jeffery R. Holland, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet," April 2015 General Conference.
Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
|
Reliability of the Bible |
|
Creation |
|
Genesis |
|
Understanding the Bible |
|
Cultural issues |
|
The Bible and the Book of Mormon |
|
What does the Church teach on the subject of death before the Fall of Adam?
Lehi said that "all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created"
The LDS Bible Dictionary states that, "Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth before the Fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the Fall (2 Ne. 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). 2 Nephi 2꞉22 describes how Adam and Eve became subject to physical death, when the Book of Mormon prophet Lehi taught that
if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. (2 Nephi 2꞉22)
Because this is the only scripture that indicates this, it is difficult to interpret the meaning of "all things." Does it mean "all things in the garden", or "all things on the entire earth", or something else?
The second scripture referenced, Moses 6꞉48, describes how "spiritual death" entered the world:
Behold Satan hath come among the children of men, and tempteth them to worship him; and men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish, and are shut out from the presence of God.
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting 2 Nephi 2꞉22
Current Church manuals take a cautionary approach to interpreting this verse by considering only how it affected Adam and Eve. For example, from Gospel Principles manual, page 28:
| 1979 Gospel Principles | 2014 Gospel Principles | Comment |
|---|---|---|
| Adam and Eve were foreordained to become the parents of the human race. | Adam and Eve were foreordained to become our first parents. | Instead of being the "parents of the human race," Adam and Eve are now "our first parents." We are only concerned with Adam. |
| She was called Eve because she was the mother of all living (see Moses 4꞉26) | Eve was "the mother of all living" (Moses 4꞉26) | The phrase "mother of all living" is now in quotes to indicate a direct quote from Moses 4꞉26. |
| She was given to Adam because God said "that is was not good that man should be alone." | God brought Adam and Eve together in marriage because "it was not good that the man should be alone." | |
| When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children. There was no death. | When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. In this state, "they would have had no children" (2 Nephi 2꞉23). There was no death. | Again, the text is changed to indicate that scripture is being quoted. The original statement that they "were not able to have children" is changed to the scriptural statement that they "would have had no children." The specific reason why they would not have had children is not indicated, whereas previously it was stated that they were incapable of having children in their "pre-Fall" state. |
| God commanded them to have children and learn to control the earth. | God commanded them to have children. | The assumption that Adam and Eve were in "control" of the entire earth has been completely removed. |
| Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world as we now know it. | Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the Lord sent them out of the Garden of Eden into the world. | The assumption that the world outside the garden was "as we now know it" has been completely removed. |
More recently, in 2016 the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era:
There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, "for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family. (emphasis added)" [1]
Was there no death on the entire earth before the Fall?
The Church does not take an official position on this issue
J. Reuben Clark |
This is one of many issues about which the Church has no official position. As President J. Reuben Clark taught under assignment from the First Presidency:
|
Harold B. Lee |
Harold B. Lee was emphatic that only one person can speak for the Church:
|
First Presidency |
This was recently reiterated by the First Presidency (who now approves all statements published on the Church's official website):
In response to a letter "received at the office of the First Presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" in 1912, Charles W. Penrose of the First Presidency wrote:
|
References |
Notes
|
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years
There is overwhelming geological evidence of death having occurred on the earth for many millions of years. For example, oil deposits are formed from the decomposed remains of ancient plants and animals.
This is where some accounts of Church teachings appear to contradict science, since many Latter-day Saint leaders and Church manuals have taught that there was no physical death on the entire earth prior to the fall of Adam.
No death anywhere?
This interpretation has been shared by many Church authors, including President Joseph Fielding Smith and Elder Bruce R. McConkie.[1] Consequently, the concept of no death before the Fall on the entire earth has made its way into many Church instructional manuals. For example, the LDS Bible Dictionary, which was included as an addition to the LDS edition of the King James Bible in 1979, includes the following statement that "death entered the world" as a result of the Fall:
Latter-day revelation teaches that there was no death on this earth for any forms of life before the fall of Adam. Indeed, death entered the world as a direct result of the fall (2 Nephi 2꞉22; Moses 6꞉48). [2]
The current edition of the Bible Dictionary, however, has a lightly edited entry "Fall of Adam":
|
|
Note that some aspects focus the death upon Adam and Eve.
There are other aspects that could be read to imply a wider impact (esp., "the whole creation fell and became mortal".)
Death for other created things?
Other leaders have seen pre-Fall death of plants and/or animals as compatible with LDS doctrine, with the doctrine of "no death" applying only to Adam and Eve within the garden, and not the wider physical creation.
The important point to remember is that the question of the scope of "death before the Fall" does not affect our salvation, and is simply an academic exercise.
Bible Dictionary editor Elder McConkie pointed out—the Bible Dictionary is neither infallible, nor an arbiter of Church doctrine:
[As for the] "Joseph Smith Translation items, the chapter headings, Topical Guide, Bible Dictionary, footnotes, the Gazeteer, and the maps. None of these are perfect; they do not of themselves determine doctrine; there have been and undoubtedly now are mistakes in them. Cross-references, for instance, do not establish and never were intended to prove that parallel passages so much as pertain to the same subject. They are aids and helps only." [4]
The Bible Dictionary itself also cautions against assuming that its contents reflect "an official or revealed endorsement by the Church of the doctrinal, historical, cultural, and other matters set forth." [5]
One must also not overlook an earlier debate on the issue of "pre-Adamites" between Elder Brigham H. Roberts of the Seventy and then-Elder Joseph Fielding Smith was brought to an end at the instruction of the First Presidency. Part of the debate centered around whether there was death prior to the Fall. At the request of the First Presidency, Elder James E. Talmage gave a talk in the tabernacle, entitled "The Earth and Man." In it, he spoke of fossilized animals and plants and said:
These lived and died, age after age, while the earth was yet unfit for human habitation.
With the approval of the First Presidency, this address was published in the Deseret News, as a Church pamphlet, and later in The Instructor.[6] Clearly, then, a universal lack of death prior to the fall is not a necessary belief within the Church, since leaders and members have held both positions.
Elder Talmage's position was made quite clear in a letter he wrote in response to a question about these matters:
I cannot agree with your conception that there was no death of plants and animals anywhere upon this earth prior to the transgression of Adam, unless we assume that the history of Adam and Eve dates back many hundreds of thousands of years. The trouble with some theologians—even including many of our own good people—is that they undertake to fix the date of Adam's transgression as being approximately 4000 years before Christ and therefore about 5932 years ago. If Adam was placed upon the earth only that comparatively short time ago the rocks clearly demonstrated that life and death have been in existence and operative in this earth for ages prior to that time. [7]
The First Presidency eventually instructed the general authorities:
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race. [8]
Reflecting on this episode, Elder Talmage wrote in his diary:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [9]
Elder Jeffery R. Holland notes that there was no human death on the earth prior to the Fall of Adam
Elder Jeffery R. Holland, at the April 2015 General Conference, stated,
[T]here was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.
I do not know the details of what happened on this planet before that, but I do know these two were created under the divine hand of God, that for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family, and that through a sequence of choices they transgressed a commandment of God which required that they leave their garden setting but which allowed them to have children before facing physical death. [10]
What was the state of things on the Earth prior to the placement of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden?
The "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" is excluded from the period of the Earth's "temporal existence"
The following is from the Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 167-171, "Section 77 Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation." off-site
D&C 77꞉6-7. Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?
"‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity." (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.) (emphasis added)
The manual specifically excludes the "period of our planet's creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man" from the period defined as the Earth's "temporal existence." Nothing is implied or stated regarding "death before the Fall."
Notes
- ↑ For a representative sample of the non-official statements made by Elder McConkie and others from a variety of perspectives, see here.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Death," 655, 1979 and current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Fall of Adam and Eve," 655, current edition. off-siteoff-site
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, cited in Mark McConkie (editor), Doctrines of the Restoration: Sermons and Writings of Bruce R. McConkie (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1989), 289–290 (emphasis added). ISBN 0884946444. ISBN 978-0884946441.
- ↑ LDS KJV, Bible Dictionary, "Introduction," 599. off-site
- ↑ James E. Talmage, "The Earth and Man," Address in the Tabernacle, (9 August 1931); originally published in the Deseret News, 21 Nov 1931; subsequently published as a pamphlet by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1931; later published in The Instructor, 100:12 (December 1965) :474–477; continued in The Instructor 101:1 (January 1966): 9–15. FAIRWiki link
- ↑ Talmage to Heber Timothy, 28 Jan. 1932, Talmage Papers; cited in Richard Sherlock, "A Turbulent Spectrum: Mormon Responses to the Darwinist Legacy," Journal of Mormon History 4:? (1975): 45–69.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Jeffery R. Holland, "Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet," April 2015 General Conference.
Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Dinosaurs were never alive on this earth, because there was no death before Adam"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Dinosaurs were never alive on this earth, because there was no death before Adam.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim is false
Nonsense. The Church does not teach that "dinosaurs were never alive on this earth." BYU not only has an active paleontology department, but they have a Museum of Paleontology. The "no death before the fall" applies to Adam and Eve, and there is nothing to indicate that this applied outside the Garden of Eden. Dinosaurs would have existed on the earth long before Adam and Eve appeared.- REDIRECTAge of the Earth#How do we reconcile the actual age of the earth to the "seven thousand years of its continuance" mentioned in D&C 77:6?
- REDIRECTAge of the Earth#Brigham Young (1871): "whether the Lord...made it in six days or in as many millions of years, is and will remain a matter of speculation in the minds of men unless he give revelation on the subject"
- REDIRECTAge of the Earth#John S. Lewis: "Considering that Doctrine and Covenants 77:6 refers to "…this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence," what led Phelps to speak of Earth as 2,555 million years old?"
Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Evolution Did Not Happen"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
"Evolution Did Not Happen.... (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, section "Evolution and Religion Cannot be Harmonized")"
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: The author has stated erroneous information or misinterpreted their sources
It is not a doctrine of the Church that evolution did not happen. Various individuals have expressed a variety of opinions on the subject, but neither an acceptance nor a rejection of evolution prevents one from being a member of the Church in good standing.
Gordon B. Hinckley (2002): "What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race"
Gordon B. Hinckley,
What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race. Scientists can speculate on the rest.[1]
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The Church's stance on the theory of organic evolution
The Church has no official position on most matters that involve evolutionary theory, and each member is entitled to his or her own personal views on the subject
In the evolution debate, difficulties have arisen when readers assume that statements by certain leaders represent an official position beyond that expressed by the First Presidency as a body. As expressed by David H. Bailey, a researcher at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory and author of numerous articles on the relationship between Mormonism and science,
The LDS Church has a great scientific tradition, including notable, respected researchers in virtually every field of modern science. Indeed, our motto is “The glory of God is intelligence.” Why not just acknowledge that science and religion address two very different sets of questions, and that the methodology in one arena cannot settle controversies in the other?[2]
More recently, the Church's official magazine for youth, the New Era said this in 2016:
The Church has no official position on the theory of evolution. Organic evolution, or changes to species’ inherited traits over time, is a matter for scientific study. Nothing has been revealed concerning evolution. Though the details of what happened on earth before Adam and Eve, including how their bodies were created, have not been revealed, our teachings regarding man’s origin are clear and come from revelation.Before we were born on earth, we were spirit children of heavenly parents, with bodies in their image. God directed the creation of Adam and Eve and placed their spirits in their bodies. We are all descendants of Adam and Eve, our first parents, who were created in God’s image. There were no spirit children of Heavenly Father on the earth before Adam and Eve were created. In addition, “for a time they lived alone in a paradisiacal setting where there was neither human death nor future family.” They fell from that state, and this Fall was an essential part of Heavenly Father’s plan for us to become like Him. (See Elder Jeffrey R. Holland of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet,” Apr. 2015 general conference.)
For further reference, see “The Origin of Man,” Improvement Era, Nov. 1909, 78; Ensign, Feb. 2002, 29. See also Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 5 vols. (1992), “Evolution,” 2:478. [3]
Harold B. Lee's plea may be the wisest stance:
Perhaps if we had the full story of the creation of the earth and man told to us in great detail, it would be more of a mystery than the simple few statements that we have contained in the Bible, because of our lack of ability to comprehend. Therefore, for reasons best known to the Lord, He has kept us in darkness. Wait until the Lord speaks, or wait until that day when He shall come, and when we shall be among the privileged either to come up out of our graves and be caught up into the clouds of heaven or shall be living upon the earth likewise to be so translated before Him. Then we shall know all things pertaining to this earth, how it was made, and all things that now as children we are groping for and trying to understand.
Let's reserve judgment as to the facts concerning the Creation until we know these things for sure.[4]
The Church's response: Official statements regarding organic evolution
- First Presidency letter, "The Origin of Man" (November 1909) This was reprinted in 2002 (“The Origin of Man,” Ensign, Feb 2002, 26)
- First Presidency statement, "Words in Season" (December 1910)
- First Presidency letter, "'Mormon' View of Evolution" (September 1925)
Some general authorities and lay members have considered evolution to be at variance with scriptural teaching
Despite the fact that the Church has no official position on evolution beyond those expressed by the First Presidency (above), some general authorities and lay members have considered evolution to be at variance with scriptural teaching. This view is well summarized by Elder Bruce R. McConkie's statement, "There is no harmony between the truths of revealed religion and the theories of organic evolution."[5] Other authors, including Joseph Fielding Smith, held similar views.
Other Church authorities and members have seen much of value in evolutionary theory, even if they have not endorsed every aspect of it. Examples include James E. Talmage, John A. Widtsoe, and LDS chemist Henry Eyring.
Gordon B. Hinckley:
What the church requires is only belief 'that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race.' Scientists can speculate on the rest.[6]
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Notes
- ↑ Gordon B. Hinckley in 2002; cited in Elaine Jarvik, "Beliefs on Darwin's evolution vary from religion to religion," Deseret Morning News (19 January 2006)
- ↑ David H. Bailey, Latter-day Creationism–A guest post by David H. Bailey!, Mormon Organon (28 October 2008).
- ↑ "What does the Church believe about evolution?," New Era (October 2016).
- ↑ Harold B. Lee, Teachings of Harold B. Lee (Salt Lake City, Utah: Bookcraft, 1996), 29.
- ↑ Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2nd edition, (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966), 256. GL direct link (read quote in context).
- ↑ Gordon B. Hinckley in 2002; cited in Elaine Jarvik, "Beliefs on Darwin's evolution vary from religion to religion," Deseret Morning News (19 January 2006).
Response to claim: "Many of these Biblical traditions were believed as literal events....Adam and Eve were the first humans"
The author(s) of MormonThink make(s) the following claim:
Many of these Biblical traditions were believed as literal events by most of the general population in the 1800s as well. These include....Adam and Eve were the first humans.
FAIR's Response
Fact checking results: This claim is based upon correct information - The author is providing knowledge concerning some particular fact, subject, or event
Latter-day Saints believe that Adam and Eve existed.Latter-day Saints and the Bible |
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Creation |
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Can Latter-day Saints have a non-literal view of the creation story?
There are three relevant areas for answering this question.
1: The philosophy of history
"Philosophy of history" means that when we approach the "historical Adam" we have to be aware that there are many different ways to understand the material as history. Our notion of history is very different from the sense that history had when the Old Testament was written. What we try to achieve with history and our sense of "telling the truth" is very different from the author of Genesis's.
This is only an issue if we believe we should understand the history of the Old Testament or historical truth as we understand them.
2: The issue of the first man
We want to understand how Adam and Eve are like us, and at the same time try to how they are different. Again, what the text is trying to tell us? Various interpretations exist which treat different parts of the story as metaphorical and other parts as literal—and in many cases the interpretations can be completely divergent
We often we have to make decisions as to how we will understand certain elements—inevitably, few if any people have a completely literal understanding of the Genesis account of Adam, just few have an entirely metaphorical take.
3: Doctrinal concerns
Genesis must be interpreted in some way. Some of these interpretations conflict with knowledge obtained from other sources, such as modern scientific knowledge. A key debate is how much weight we should grant to these different sources of information.
In one view, we try to understand the time period of Genesis literally, and the age of the earth then as being finite (a mere few thousand years). In another, there are those who accept that the earth seems to be very old, complete with a long fossil record of life. If this information is given considerable weight, then the earth is ancient and the Genesis account's report of "days" is read in a less literal sense.
What is the Church's position on Adam and Eve?
The Church consistently insists that there is a historical Adam
What does this mean? Some members take this to mean that the narrative in Genesis should be understood in some way as a literal history. For others, it means that there is little more than the assertion that in all of God's creation over a very long period of time (early members at the time of Joseph Smith speculated that it could be billions of years) there is a certain point when we have the first man (as a child of God).
Some bits are core, or "non-negotiable"
Given these commitments, there are still a variety of ways that one might read the accounts:
- Adam and Eve as historic individuals (D&C 137꞉5; 138꞉38-39), the very first humans.
- Adam being the first in a line of priesthood-holding patriarchs among other humans (D&C 84꞉16; Abraham 1꞉3; Alma 13꞉7-9).
- Adam and Eve being the first of God's spirit children among other human-like beings.
- Adam and even with bodies that are the product of organic evolutionary processes (whether directed by God or not).
Our presuppositions and the weight we give to other sources of information will determine which we find most appealing
Beyond the existence of a historical Adam, the rest can be understood literally or metaphorically, or more commonly as a mixture of these extreme positions
Most members of the Church are somewhere on a spectrum between completely literal and completely metaphoric. Consider, for example, this comment in the Ensign in 1994:
This concept is further solidified by the description of the creation of woman as being formed from the rib of Adam—a rib being a metaphor for a person corresponding to Adam. Modern prophets have taught that the creation of woman from the rib of the man is to be taken figuratively. (See Spencer W. Kimball, Ensign (Mar. 1976): 71..) [1]
Most of the leaders of the Church have understood the use of Adam's rib as a metaphor and not some literal history
Most of the leaders of the Church have understood the use of Adam's rib as a metaphor and not some literal history - even while the same leaders would assert that other parts of the narrative of Adam and Eve should be understood literally.
Less essential aspects of the Garden account
Most aspects of the Genesis account do not have significant doctrinal imprortance or a definitive interpretation in scripture.
- When did the fall happen?—D&C 77꞉12 discussed seven periods of one thousand years for the world's temporal existence. Given that Doctrine and Covenants states that we don’t know when the Savior will come and won’t know until he comes (D&C 49꞉7), many see the seven thousand years of D&C 77 as idealized blocks of time, not precise numbers that can be used for historical dating.
- In what order did the creation events happen?—The creation accounts don't agree exact with the sequence and time frame of various creative events. This is okay, since the ancient writers never meant to give a scientific explanation of the cosmos. The Encyclopedia of Mormonism writes:
:The scriptures tell why man was created, but they do not tell how, though the Lord has promised that he will tell that when he comes again (D&C 101꞉32-33)[2]
- Was there death for any creature prior to the Fall of Adam?—on this issue the Church has no official position. Given that there is substantial fossil evidence of organisms who lived and died for millions of years, many have concluded that the scientific evidence should be given considerable weight since there is no clear scriptural or theological reason to insist on the complete absence of death. Others have felt that this point ought not to be abandoned, and that the scientific data is misleading. The latter conclusion assumes a very high burden of proof, however.
- Was there procreation of any sort prior to the Fall of Adam?—The Church likewise has no official position on this question. The factors and priorities discussed in the previous entry apply here too.
- When and how did Adam and Eve receive spirits into their bodies?—The Church's official magazine gave three possibilities in 1910:
Whether the mortal bodies of man evolved in natural processes to present perfection, through the direction and power of God; whether the first parents of our generations, Adam and Eve, were transplanted from another sphere, with immortal tabernacles, which became corrupted through sin and the partaking of natural foods, in the process of time; whether they were born here in mortality, as other mortals have been, are questions not fully answered in the revealed word of God.[3]
Here again, our belief about other sources of information will sway us one way or the other.
- The Adamic language—Latter-day Saint teaching discussed a primordial pure language.[4] The particulars are not of any great importance, and a variety of points of view are possible.
- How Adam and Eve entered the garden—We learn from scripture that no unclean thing can enter God's presence (1 Nephi 10꞉21;15꞉24; Alma 7꞉21; 11꞉37; 40꞉26; Hel 8꞉25; 3 Ne. 27꞉19; Doctrine and Covenants 94꞉8; 97:15; 109:20). We also learn that God is perfect (Matthew 5꞉48; 3 Nephi 12꞉48).
If this is so, then the way in which Adam and Eve enter the Garden may be important. If the origin of their bodies is option 1 or 2 given above, then they would be perfect and clean. If they developed through mortal processes and were born of mortals, then their bodies would need to be cleansed and perfected before going into the Garden.
- Did Adam and Eve mix with extant populations outside the garden?—The answer to this depends upon whether one believes there were any other humans outside the garden, or whether all are literal, exclusive descendants from Adam and Eve.
First Presidency statement (1931): "Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research"
The First Presidency said in 1931,
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race."[5]
How does the Church explain the existence of human-like beings on the earth prior to Adam?
There has been a great deal of controversy among Church members over the issue of pre-Adamites
When studying the creation, how do we deal with the evidence of creatures that looked a lot like man, who lived and made tools, painted paintings, etc., all before what could be the existence of Adam? How do we answer who they were? Are they like animals? We clearly have evidence that they have lived here on this planet.
There has been a great deal of controversy among Church members over the issue of pre-Adamites. Some general authorities accepted evidence for their existence, while others completely denied it. The most famous disagreement was between Elders B.H. Roberts and Joseph Fielding Smith. Following this debate, the First Presidency wrote to the general authorities
Both parties [i.e., Elders Smith and Roberts] make the scripture and the statements of men who have been prominent in the affairs of the Church the basis of their contention; neither has produced definite proof in support of his views…
Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored Gospel to the people of the world. Leave geology, biology, archaeology and anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree namely, that presidents Joseph F. Smith, John Winder and Anthon Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race."[6]
Elder James E. Talmage noted in his journal:
...Involved in this question is that of the beginning of life upon the earth, and as to whether there was death either of animal or plant before the fall of Adam, on which proposition Elder Smith was very pronounced in denial and Elder Roberts equally forceful in the affirmative. As to whether Preadamite races existed upon the earth there has been much discussion among some of our people of late. The decision reached by the First Presidency, and announced to this morning's assembly, was in answer to a specific question that obviously the doctrine of the existence of races of human beings upon the earth prior to the fall of Adam was not a doctrine of the Church; and, further, that the conception embodied in the belief of many to the effect that there were no such Preadamite races, and that there was no death upon the earth prior to Adam's fall is likewise declared to be no doctrine of the Church. I think the decision of the First Presidency is a wise one in the premises. This is one of the many things upon which we cannot preach with assurance and dogmatic assertions on either side are likely to do harm rather than good. [7]
Hugh Nibley: "Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation"
Probably the best approach is the one taken by Hugh Nibley:
Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation — for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared. God assigned them their proper times and functions, as he has given me mine — a full-time job that admonishes me to remember his words to the overly eager Moses: "For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me." ([https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/1?lang=eng&id=p31#p31 Moses 1꞉31].) It is Adam as my own parent who concerns me. When he walks onto the stage, then and only then the play begins. [8]
The science has advanced substantially since Nibley's article, and so its scientific claims should no longer be considered current. However, his theologic and historic perspective is still useful.
Notes
- ↑ "I Have a Quetion: What does it mean when the Lord said he would create for Adam 'an help meet for him'? (Gen. 2꞉18.)," Ensign (January 1994). off-site
- ↑ William E. Evenson "Evolution" in Encyclopedia of Mormonism (ed.) Daniel Ludlow, (New York, NY: MacMillian Publishing, 1992)
- ↑ Editorial (unsigned) [Joseph F. Smith as president of the Church and Edward H. Anderson were editors], "Priesthood Quorums’ Table," Improvement Era 13 no. 4? (April 1910), 570.
- ↑ See "Sample of Pure Language, between circa 4 and circa 20 March 1832," (accessed 3 April 2019).
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ First Presidency, Memorandum to General Authorities, April 1931, 6–7.
- ↑ James Edward Talmage, Personal Journal (7 April 1931) 29:42, Archives and Manuscripts, Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah (emphasis added).
- ↑ Hugh W. Nibley, "Before Adam," in {{Nibley1|start=82|end=83]]{{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/contents/866]]{{link|url=http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=73]]
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