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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink
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A FairMormon Analysis of the critical website MormonThink.com
I fantasize about a full-blown faith-destroying session. In real life, I did put the bishop in his place over polygamy. He kept saying I was wrong about Joseph having other wives and being illegal and such. I proved him wrong and he ate crow. twas fun.
—MormonThink's first managing editor, Feb. 21, 2012, 12:50PM. [1]
A FairMormon Analysis of claims made on the critical website MormonThink.com
Summary: The web site MormonThink.com originally claimed to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. They authors have since abandoned the pretense that any of them are "active" in the Church. The founding webmaster was, by his own admission, pretending to be semi-active in order to destroy members' and missionaries' testimonies from within the social structure of the Church. The site pretends to be "balanced" by presenting information and links to apologetic sites, however, the conclusions reached by the site consistently reflect negatively on the Church's truth claims. The site also sometimes contains a large amount of Temple content.
Jump to details:
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
- Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
Overview
The website mormonthink.com is designed to lead Church members into questioning their beliefs in a non-threatening manner by claiming to be "objective" and "balanced." For years that site claimed to be run by active members of the Church. In reality, however, they were "active" only in the sense that some of them still occasionally attended Church—they did not accept the Church's truth claims, and they had no interest in strengthening belief. Instead, the site portrays Church leaders as liars, Joseph Smith as a fraud and con-man, and the Church as "an oppressive empire building corporation." The site includes links to FairMormon as a way of demonstrating their claimed "balance."
Each page on MormonThink.com typically includes quotes from Church sources, large amounts of block text copied from websites critical of the Church, a few references to LDS apologetics that are followed by mocking refutations by critics, and and ending summary which generally agrees with the critics. The bottom of each page contains links to critical sites, believers' sites and to some sites which they consider neutral.
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Translation of the Book of Mormon"
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- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery at the same table with the plates in full view of both of them"
- Response to claim: "he only said that he did it by the 'gift and power of God'"
- Response to claim: "Was Joseph Smith not a money digger? Yes, but it was not a very profitable job for him"
- Response to claim: "In March 1826, the twenty-year-old Joseph Smith was arrested and brought before South Bainbridge justice of the peace"
- Response to claim: "Joseph never found any treasure for the men that hired him to find treasure using his seer stones"
- Response to claim: "there is evidence that he found the plates using a seer stone"
- Response to claim: "It is troublesome that a common stone found some 24 feet beneath the ground on Mr. Chase's property had the exact same seering ability as the sacred Urim and Thummim"
- Response to claim: "Why doesn't the Church openly talk about this stone today?"
- Response to claim: "why did Joseph say they were only for beginners?"
- Response to claim: "the 10th president of the Church thinks that using a stone to translate the Book of Mormon with 'hardly seems reasonable'"
- Response to claim: "it would make the whole story sound unbelievable"
- Response to claim: "That is Peterson's attempt to make it sound as if the stone was something that the Nephites had used"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Problems"
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- Response to claim: "pictographic and literary evidence of horses in the New World (outside of the Book of Mormon) is unknown"
- Response to claim: "that the horses described in the BOM were really deer or tapirs is absolutely ridiculous"
- Response to claim: "why they would let this most useful of all animals disappear and leave absolutely no trace of its existence"
- Response to claim: "Solomon Spalding, in his fictional piece Manuscript Story, mentions horses in connection with the inhabitants of the New World"
- Response to claim: "The Church added the word coins starting in 1920 to the chapter summaries in order to clarify what the text of the chapter was about"
- Response to claim: "The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the "Liahona", was a DIRECTOR"
- Response to claim: "The FAIR apologists are the same people that make "horse" mean "tapir" and "steel" somehow they make into wooden clubs"
- Response to claim: "LDS apologists will search and search until they find someone that will support their claims"
- Response to claim: "scientists agree that elephants did not exist in the Americas"
- Response to claim: "every soil coring taken in Central America should show traces of wheat, barley, and flax pollen"
- Response to claim: "all of these animals and plants existed in abundance in the Americas when the Nephites and Lamanites lived as they were brought there by Lehi and his family"
- Response to claim: "Archaeology says that wheels were not used for travel in Pre-Columbian America"
- Response to claim: "If the Lamanites, Nephites or any other peoples used the wheel for any length of time, they would not have simply abandoned its use for any reason"
- Response to claim: "there appears to be no existing archeological evidence which directly supports the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "Some have even gone so far as to suggest that the entire Book of Mormon narrative occurred within a very limited geographical location"
- Response to claim: "reports circulated in LDS culture that the Book of Mormon was being used by the Smithsonian to guide primary archaeological research"
- Response to claim: "it should be fairly easy to locate a temple 'like unto the temple of Solomon'"
- Response to claim: "the account of Thomas Stuart Ferguson...His efforts and the efforts of his foundation ended in failure"
- Response to claim: "The Nahom case provides evidence...of the willingness of LDS scholars to look anywhere in their despair to find a shred of validation"
- Response to claim: "Both books were fifty miles away from where the translation was being done"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
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- Response to claim: "The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"
- Response to claim: "If opponents of the Church really had the lost 116 pages as Joseph claimed, they would have resurfaced in some form"
- Response to claim: "If, however, Joseph created it himself, his memory would hardly be adequate to such a task"
- Response to claim: "It is convenient that the prophets of old just happened to make an extra set of plates 1500 years ago to cover this contingency"
- Response to claim: "what are the odds that either one of the evil men trying to bring down Joseph was either a master forger or had access to a master forger?"
- Response to claim: "the whole attempt would have been one of the weakest arguments against the church - hardly Satan's master plan"
- Response to claim: "FAIR didn't even attempt to explain about the 'evil men'"
- Response to claim: "In reality, the lost 116 pages were never produced"
- Response to claim: "To believe this, you must accept that God is so impatient he's bothered by someone asking the same question repeatedly"
- Response to claim: "So put the lame 116-page explanation together with the nonsensical translation of plate"
- Response to claim: "We find it hard to believe that Satan and some wicked men were really behind the plot to steal the 116 pages"
- Response to claim: "it seems much more plausible that Martin Harris' wife had immediately destroyed the pages just to defy her husband"
- Response to claim: "Joseph appears to have falsified canonized scripture"
- Response to claim: "There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called 'All About the Mormons'"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon?"
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- Response to claim: "the "most correct of any book on earth" has undergone more than 3,000 textual and grammatical corrections."
- Response to claim: "when the BOM was first published, he tried to sell the copyright to the BOM to a publishing company"
- Response to claim: "the first edition of the BOM has on its title page the author listed as Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "This wasn't a family of illiterates. Education was important to the Smith family"
- Response to claim: "Joseph was known for story-telling"
- Response to claim: "Roberts...concluded that Joseph Smith had sufficient imagination"
- Response to claim: "Joseph simply incorporated this dream experience, that had such an impact on his father, into the BOM"
- Response to claim: "Many parts of the BOM are identical to the Bible....Plagiarism is not difficult for anyone to do"
- Response to claim: "The King James version of The Holy Bible has some translation problems...the BOM has these same errors"
- Response to claim: "Some LDS apologists admit that Joseph must have used the King James Bible when bringing forth the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "if the sermon on the mount was not translated correctly in the Bible, why then, is it the same incorrect translation in the BOM?"
- Response to claim: "View of the Hebrews was a very popular book published in New England in 1823"
- Response to claim: "There was a reference to View of the Hebrews within Joseph Smith's lifetime"
- Response to claim: "Early American Influences in the Book of Mormon stands in direct contradiction to the testimonies of witnesses to Joseph Smith's translation process"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith may simply have had help from someone else to write the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "The Spalding theory often does not get much attention...We think that the Tanners and Fawn Brodie did a disservice to the theory"
- Response to claim: "Dale Broadhurst has amassed a collection of various 1800s newspaper articles that report many accounts of those that support the Spalding Theory"
- Response to claim: "A lost Spalding manuscript was found in Hawaii"
- Response to claim: "Ethan Smith - the author of A View of the Hebrews was Oliver Cowdery's minister from 1823-1828"
- Response to claim: "More ongoing work is currently being performed in order to try to find a link between Rigdon and Smith before the BOM was published"
- Response to claim: "It should also take into consideration the fact that Joseph Smith had years to come up with text and plot"
- Response to claim: "If Joseph was indeed committing a fraud...He simply acted like he didn't know that Jerusalem had walls...OR if the BOM came from another source...then he may have been genuinely surprised"
- Response to claim: "Joseph likely memorized the pages well enough to continue where he left off or he may very well have peaked at the last page before he started again"
- Response to claim: "we were clearly taught that there was a curtain between Joseph and Oliver Cowdery...If that's the case...Joseph could have simply read from notes or even whole papers"
- Response to claim: "knowledgeable LDS historians endorse the idea that Joseph put his face in a hat with a seer stone and dictated the BOM to a scribe"
- Response to claim: "Emma blatantly lies in the following questions seriously damaging her credibility"
- Response to claim: "Emma's answers are blatant lies, as the historical record shows"
- Response to claim: "she didn't want to be portrayed as the woman whose husband made a fool of by claiming divine right to have relations with dozens of other women while he was married to Emma"
- Response to claim: "If there are others that produced works that far exceeded their capabilities, then this would show that Joseph's experience was not unique"
- Response to claim: "Their lack of ability, in each case, did not seem to deter them from producing works which equal, or easily surpass, the Book of Mormon in literary style and quality"
- Response to claim: "A righteous man who was deluded could have written the Book of Mormon, not aware that he was lying"
- Response to claim: "Some people believe that Joseph Smith's hand was moving by some strange force like the channelers do"
- Response to claim: "The book is clearly of purely human origin, penned by an author with a vivid imagination ....Together with the duplicity of Smith's associates Cowdery, Harris and Whitmer"
- Response to claim: "unless Laban was in the habit of coming home with blood-drenched clothing"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Witnesses"
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: "The witnesses' experiences may have only been visionary in nature"
- Response to claim: "There are also several statements saying that the only time they saw the plates was when the plates were covered in a cloth or tow frock"
- Response to claim: "God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints"
- Response to claim: "All the witnesses had close ties to Joseph and his family"
- Response to claim: "Some of the witnesses, especially Martin Harris, were easily swayed by tales of the supernatural, especially in a religious context"
- Response to claim: "Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses, who have been heralded as good, honest, Abe Lincoln-type of men were later called liars, counterfeiters, thieves, etc. by Joseph Smith himself"
- Response to claim: "The 'testimony of the witnesses' is similar to testimonials which were commonly included in books"
- Response to claim: "A personal promise (and a threat of condemnation) coming directly from God is bound to have a powerful influence on a person’s thinking"
- Response to claim: "There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "There are many witnesses to James Strang's claim of having unearthed metal plates which he translated into scripture"
- Response to claim: "Travis Walton, became an unwilling captive of an alien race when the other men fled in fear"
- Response to claim: "just because a group of people claims something extraordinary happened to them, it doesn't make it so"
- Response to claim: "There are many, many reported witnesses to UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness Monster, Abominable Snowman, alien abductions...Should they be believed as well?"
- Response to claim: "Just because three witnesses signed a statement saying they saw an angel, doesn't mean it really happened or that it didn't happen either"
- Response to claim: "this comparison shows some of the inherent weaknesses of the using just witnesses to prove historical events"
- Response to claim: "Why should we believe all the Book of Mormon witnesses over the sworn affidavits of over dozens of unrelated townspeople?"
- Response to claim: "None of the witnesses should have been related to Joseph or each other"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have already been eager believers"
- Response to claim: "There should have been no financial motive"
- Response to claim: "Each of the witnesses should each have written their own testimony"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been much more detailed about this amazing event"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should have been interviewed independently immediately after going public"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have used subjective language and say strange things like comparing seeing the plates with seeing a city through a mountain or using spiritual eyes instead of their natural eyes to view physical plates"
- Response to claim: "why was 'a supernatural power' needed for the witness John Whitmer to be shown the plates?"
- Response to claim: "The witnesses should not have been gullible people"
- Response to claim: "All of the witness should have been much more vocal and been interviewed much more often"
- Response to claim: "it would have helped had all the witnesses remained loyal to the Church for the rest of their lives"
- Response to claim: "It's also quite possible that Oliver was in on a deception with Joseph"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Moroni's Visitation"
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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The First Vision"
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- Response to claim: In the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon
- Response to claim: Issues related to revivals in the Palmyra area in 1820
- Response to claim: Issues related to Oliver Cowdery's 1834-1835 Church history published in the Messenger and Advocate
- Response to claim: "There is no evidence that Joseph told anyone before about 1835, including his family, about the first vision story we know today"
- Response to claim: "the story of the first vision "was not given general circulation in the 1830's"
- Response to claim: "in the early 1800s having visions wasn't perceived to be all that uncommon"
- Response to claim: "How could Smith’s family be unaware of his vision while neighbors were persecuting him for it?"
- Response to claim: "Historical documents indicate that Joseph was persecuted for engaging in a confidence scheme using a magic rock-in-a-hat"
- Response to claim: "The date of the vision and his age varies - from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)"
- Response to claim: "The reason or motive for seeking divine help changes"
- Response to claim: "Who appeared to him? – (1) a spirit, (2)an angel,(3) two angels,(4) Jesus, (5)many angels, and finally, (6) the Father and the Son"
- Response to claim: "he states that he already knew all other churches were false before he prayed"
- Response to claim: "some of the Smith family joining the Presbyterian church AFTER God has supposedly told Joseph that all churches were corrupt"
- Response to claim: "and the fact that as late as 1851, church publications such as the "Times and Seasons" were calling the angel that visited Joseph 'Nephi,' rather than Moroni"
- Response to claim: "Curious investigators and historians wonder if there is evidence of an 1820 revival in the historical record"
- Response to claim: "It started in the fall of 1824 and continued into the spring of 1825"
- Response to claim: "existing tax records and property assessments indicate the most likely date for the Smith family's move onto their Manchester farm was 1822"
- Response to claim: "An ad in the newspaper for a church camp meeting is not a revival that causes the 'religious excitement' that Smith described"
- Response to claim: "Records show that in June 1828, Joseph Smith applied for membership in his wife's Methodist Church"
- Response to claim: "But of the nearly 4,000 alterations, some of them had to do with Joseph's evolving belief about the nature of God"
- Response to claim: "The Fifth Lecture on Faith specifically states that the Father is a spirit"
- Response to claim: "In 1832 Joseph Smith revealed that a man could not see God without the Mormon Priesthood. This revelation is currently Section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Verses 21-22"
- Response to claim: "Swedenborg insisted: 'There are three heavens'"
- Response to claim: The First Vision teaches that "God the Father and Jesus Christ were separate beings: But this was not understood by church members during Smith’s lifetime"
- Response to claim: "How is it that JS could remember the precise date of the angel's visit in 1823, but could not remember the precise date of God's appearance to him in 1820?"
- Response to claim: "How do we know that it wasn't Satan (if he exists) that appeared to Joseph?"
- Response to claim: "the first vision version of April 1838 added significant material that bolstered his authority during a time of crisis"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Book of Abraham"
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- Response to claim: "LDS and non-LDS Egyptologists and both groups have indicated clearly that the scrolls are funerary texts that have nothing to do with Abraham"
- Response to claim: "isn't it somewhat disturbing that Joseph would say that this pagan god with his exposed penis is our Heavenly Father?"
- Response to claim: "Facsimile 3...This particular scene corresponds to Chapter 125 of the Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead"
- Response to claim: "But when it became obvious that the results were going to be painfully uncomfortable for the Church, work became very slow"
- Response to claim: "one of the sections of papyrus was clearly the Egyptian writing from which Smith claimed to 'translate' the Book of Abraham"
- Response to claim: "Smith had obviously commissioned an artist to 'fill in' the missing details according to Smith's speculation"
- Response to claim: "Below is a modern reconstruction of what the missing pieces likely contained, based on contents of similar funeral documents"
- Response to claim: "The Book of Abraham supports the concept of polygamy as Abraham took another wife as directed by the Lord"
- Response to claim: "This is the only scriptural reference that we know of where God instructs someone to lie"
- Response to claim: "If God would instruct Abraham to lie about his wives then it seems plausible that God could tell Joseph to lie about his wives as well"
- Response to claim: "The Book of Abraham also introduced the first and only scriptural basis for denying the priesthood to Blacks"
- Response to claim: "It described Pharaoh and the Egyptians as descendants of Ham and Canaan"
- Response to claim: "perhaps it would not have been so prominently practiced by the members if there was no Book of Abraham to support the practice"
- Response to claim: "The two current most prominent Egyptologists on each side of the BOA issue are LDS Egyptologist Michael Rhodes and nonLDS Egyptologist Robert Ritner"
- Response to claim: "John Gee...He has written many articles for FARMS. He was a student of Egyptology under Robert Ritner"
- Response to claim: "Stuart Ferguson: LDS archaeologist that spent 20 years on a quest to discover some archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to claim: "they needed to renew their subscriptions so they wouldn't miss any of the cliff-hanging Abrahamic adventures in Egypt"
- Response to claim: "Apostle Jeffrey Holland was asked why the translation of the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith doesn't match what Egyptologists say it means"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Kinderhook Plates"
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Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Joseph's Translation of the Bible"
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- Response to claim: "How is it that the BOM doesn’t match the" Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible?
- Response to claim: "Why didn’t the next prophet, or any subsequent prophet, finish the inspired version of the Bible?"
- Response to claim: "Joseph...left 'uncorrected' the passages about how in heaven, they neither marry nor are given in marriage"
- Response to claim: "the Book of Abraham....distinctly taught the plurality of gods....Why didn’t Joseph correct this when he translated the Bible"
- Response to claim: "Another error in the King James Version is the introduction of the name 'Lucifer'"
- Response to claim: "Each time linguists make a new Bible translation....not one to date has confirmed any of Joseph Smith's inspired version passages"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Running with Gold Plates"
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- Response to claim: "Although the plates are often referred to as 'gold plates' they didn't necessary have to be made of pure gold"
- Response to claim: "It's inconceivable that anybody could run carrying a 50 lb. set of metal plates, jumping over logs and such and be able to outrun three men"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Polygamy"
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- Response to claim: "one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: There were more women than men in the 1800s"
- Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was not practiced until after the Saints started immigrating to Utah"
- Response to claim: "Member beliefs....Polygamy was not illegal in the 1800s"
- Response to claim: "The reasons most commonly given by members (even if not published in church lesson manuals) to justify polygamy are:...Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership"
- Response to claim: "For example Brigham Young reportedly had 55 children by some 29 child-bearing capable wives but had those women had their own husbands they may have had 150 or more children in total"
- Response to claim: "The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy"
- Response to claim: "many church members, especially converts, naturally believe that Brigham Young started polygamy"
- Response to claim: "If we take the Book of Mormon witnesses' statements so seriously, shouldn't we also accept other things that they reportedly witnessed just as powerfully?"
- Response to claim: "Joseph's first polygamous marriage was before the sealing authority was given"
- Response to claim: "Although Henry eventually remarried, after Brigham Young told him that his wife and children belonged to Brigham and not to Henry, he continued to yearn for Zina and their children"
- Response to claim: "LDS apologists acknowledge Joseph married other men's wives"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith literally stole other men's wives and their children"
- Response to claim: "The following is from a love letter Joseph Smith wrote when he wanted to arrange a liaison with Newel K. Whitney's daughter Sarah Ann"
- Response to claim: "So why question whether or not Joseph had sex with his wives, even the ones who were already married to other men?"
- Response to claim: "he would have been breaking the "commandment" from God if he did not try to procreate with his wives"
- Response to claim: "Faithful Mormon and wife of Joseph Smith, Sylvia Sessions (Lyon), on her deathbed told her daughter, Josephine, that she (Josephine) was the daughter of Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "When Joseph supposedly propositioned (or actually had sex with) fifteen year old Nancy Marinda Johnson, Dr. Dennison, with the encouragement of a neighborhood mob, nearly castrated him"
- Response to claim: "Some critics believe that Joseph may have gotten some of his wives pregnant but had them get abortions"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith had "conjugal relations" with at least eight women in addition to his first wife, Emma"
- Response to claim: "If even the FARMS apologists, FAIR apologists and faithful LDS historians acknowledge that Joseph may have had sex with his polygamous wives (including the ones already married)"
- Response to claim: "Smith then asked for his only daughter, 14 year-old Helen"
- Response to claim: "The negative writings by Helen seem to greatly outweigh the positive writings"
- Response to claim: "it's futile for Mormon apologists to argue that Smith's sealing to Helen was 'dynastic' or 'spiritual' only"
- Response to claim: "It is clear that on May 26, 1844 Joseph lied about practicing polygamy"
- Response to claim: "The Church continued to practice polygamy after 1890"
- Response to claim: "a sitting apostle in the 1950s had a polygamous Father-in-law living in full fellowship in the church and was a temple worker, more than half a century after church leaders claimed to have abandoned polygamy"
- Response to claim: Gordon B. Hinckley..."Why did the prophet of the church just lie and say that polygamy was not doctrinal?"
- Response to claim: "The Church Almanac lists Parley P Pratt as assassinated while on a mission but he was really murdered by the irate existing husband of his latest fancy"
- Response to claim: "the circumstances surrounding Joseph's assassination was a result of the actions he took to prevent his being exposed as a polygamist"
- Response to claim: "Perhaps that's one reason we're told not to pray to our Mother-in-Heaven as we wouldn't know which one"
- Response to claim: "We have to wonder why an angel didn't appear to Emma to convince her that polygamy was commanded by God"
- Response to claim: "we can't think of any earthly reason for practicing polygamy"
- Response to claim: "although polygamy was practiced somewhat in Old Testament times, it was more of a social custom and not a religious commandment"
- Response to claim: "Why would Joseph make up the preposterous story that an angel with a sword commanded him to practice polygamy"
- Response to claim: "So why doesn't the spirit make us all feel warm fuzzies inside when it comes to polygamy?"
- Response to claim: "The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Blacks and the Priesthood"
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- Response to claim: "The leaders of the church up through the 1970s made it very clear why blacks were denied the priesthood"
- Response to claim: "The term 'white' was changed to 'pure' in 1981"
- Response to claim: "Slaves were bought and sold in Utah Territory with the approval of Brigham Young"
- Response to claim: "Under President Jimmy Carter, Brigham Young University and possibly the LDS Church itself was in danger of losing their tax exempt status if they continued to discriminate against blacks"
- Response to claim: "The 1978 'revelation' was just prior to the temple opening in Sao Paulo Brazil"
- Response to claim: "some of these people may be taking liberties with the phrase 'voice of God'"
- Response to claim: "Although we don't normally quote from sources who are unwilling to have their name published"
- Response to claim: "It seems likely from President Spencer W. Kimball's statement printed in the church's own newspaper that he did not receive any word from God concerning the matter"
- Response to claim: "Alexander Morrison ....'How grateful I am that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has from its beginnings stood strongly against racism in any of its malignant manifestations'"
- Response to claim: "Isn't what GBH saying is wrong exactly what the Church did?"
- Response to claim: "Many religions in the 1800s believed that the curse put upon Cain in Genesis was black skin"
- Response to claim: "other non-LDS churches did not teach that blacks were less valiant before they came to earth - that was a unique LDS belief"
- Response to claim: "If you accept scientific reasoning then all of Mormonism's teachings about race and skin are complete nonsense"
- Response to claim: "Some members refer to this as the Bigfoot reference"
- Response to claim: "Some members question whether the ban was actual doctrine or just Church policy"
- Response to claim: "If the leaders of the church could make such a serious error, then how can we really ever put our 100% trust in what they say?"
- Response to claim: "He should have stated whether or not the leaders of the church at that time interpreted that doctrine correctly or not"
- Response to claim: "if all the prophets since Brigham Young until Spencer W. Kimball let it go unchallenged, then how can anyone say these men are truly prophets of God?"
- Response to claim: "This LDS belief that even faithful blacks were destined to be just servants in the next life was also taught openly at least through the mid 1950s"
- Response to claim: "Perhaps the Church should at least clarify the reasons for the ban"
- Response to claim: "McConkie can only apologize for his own statements and the current prophet would have to explain the Church's practices for the first 150 years of its existence"
- Response to claim: "One of the following must be racist - Was it Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or God?"
- Response to claim: "Shouldn't we expect more from God's Prophets than to merely reflect the times in which they lived?"
- Response to claim: "The church claims to be God's church, indeed, His kingdom on Earth. As such, they should not 'Course Correct'"
- Response to claim: "Many faithful LDS simply dismiss the LDS racism as Brigham Young's racist attitudes were a reflection of the times in which he lived"
- Response to claim: "But the LDS Church did not change until 1978 - decades after all the other major religions did"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Greek Psalter Incident"
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- Response to claim: "there really is little to look at to determine the accuracy of Joseph's translating ability of the BOM"
- Response to claim: "it's prudent to examine whatever source documents that may exist for those translations...very few members are aware of Joseph's encounter with a Greek Psalter in 1842"
- Response to claim: "Joseph...apparently knew Egyptian well enough to translate it"
- Response to claim: "Joseph examined the ancient document and replied that it was a Dictionary of Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphics"
- Response to claim: "Caswall's experience with Joseph Smith at Nauvoo on 18-19 April 1842 expresses the frustration of an increasing number of LDS students with Joseph's ability to translate ancient documents"
- Response to claim: "We regret that we could not find this issue discussed on the Church's official website"
- Response to claim: "Critic's response. We support professor Caswall's response to Joseph's error"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith did the exact same thing with the Greek Psalter that he did with the Book of Abraham papyri and the Kinderhook Plates"
- Response to claim: "it seems likely that the event probably happened pretty much as Caswall related"
- Response to claim: "If this was the only translation issue that was damaging to the prophet then we would dismiss it"
- Response to claim: "if he really translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian papyri then he would know what Egyptian characters are"
- Response to claim: "Although the Greek Psalter incident is the translation effort with the least amount of significance, it further damages Joseph's claims to be a true seer"
- Response to claim: "There is a difference between an isolated incident and a pattern"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Conflicts with Science"
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: "the Church clearly teaches that story of Noah was a real event and it was a global flood"
- Response to claim: "The Sun Gets Its Light from Kolob"
- Response to claim: "From ancient dead animals and plants, it takes millions of years for oil and coal to form"
- Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Dinosaurs were never alive on this earth, because there was no death before Adam"
- Response to claim: "What most LDS have been taught in church and believe as truth...Evolution Did Not Happen"
- Response to claim: "Many of these Biblical traditions were believed as literal events....Adam and Eve were the first humans"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Tithing"
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: "We are not called to tithe, but to make an offering to sustain the church"
- Response to claim: "It appears that the LDS Church defined tithing differently in the early days of the LDS Church than they do now"
- Response to claim: "We are tithe payers...When can we see the financial information?"
- Response to claim: "Tithing as the Catholic priest said above should be a gift, but the LDS Church makes it an obligation"
- Response to claim: "The guilt placed upon Latter-day Saints can be considerable"
- Response to claim: "The church owns many businesses that generate profits...The church has very little expense in relation to its income. The tithing money it receives is all tax-free. The property is exempt from taxes"
- Response to claim: "Imagine if you had a corporation where the business model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year"
- Response to claim: "The Church hardly spends any of its money on humanitarian aid"
- Response to claim: "the church has far more than it needs"
- Response to claim: "why couldn't the church sell its non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor?"
- Response to claim: "Now they expect members (as if they didn't spend enough time in church service) to clean their own buildings on their days off"
- Response to claim: "probably not really the way Jesus would have intended his church to be run"
- Response to claim: "where did the money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate those profits?"
- Response to claim: "Of all the things Jesus would tell Gordon Hinckley, He told the Prophet to buy a mall?"
- Response to claim: "It's disgraceful to read some of the propaganda the Church puts out about tithing"
- Response to claim: "This absolute devotion of choosing to pay a religious entity that is worth some $100 Billion over feeding her children or paying the mortgage is nothing to be admired"
- Response to claim: "LDS leaders often hint at promises that tithe payers will receive increased income from paying tithes"
- Response to claim: "Many former Mormons continue to pay their tithing, but now do so to more traditional charities"
- Response to claim: "LDS tithes are hardly used for charity, but are used primarily to build the kingdom"
- Response to claim: "Advice for those who wish to be a member but not pay a full tithing"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "The Temple"
Jump to details:
- Response to claim: "a strong connection between Masonry and the LDS temple ceremony"
- Response to claim: "We were somewhat startled to find that FAIR admits that Masonry does not date back to Bible Times"
- Response to claim: Joseph Smith "may have introduced the temple ceremony as a way of keeping polygamy a secret"
- Response to claim: "Another possibility is that Joseph believed in magical and mystical things such as seer stones; he believed that putting symbols on clothing would protect him from harm"
- Response to claim: "Garments are the Mormon burqas - just worn on the inside"
- Response to claim: "There seems to be an absence of love in the actual temple marriage ceremony"
- Response to claim: "very few people honestly say that their first temple experience was a complete joy"
- Response to claim: "We've been hearing more and more stories that temple names are being recycled"
- Response to claim: "The St. George Temple endowment included a revised thirty-minute 'lecture at the veil'"
- Response to claim: "Why would the church place such emphasis on the temple?...Money...Control...Church importance...Peer pressure"
- Response to claim: "If they were just used for public weddings, sealings and special worship services, then the temple would be viewed by members and nonmembers alike as holy places"
- Response to claim: "The temple ceremony seems almost pagan in nature... Very few members are really spiritually uplifted when they first go through the temple"
- Response to claim: "the temple ceremony is not factual, as Adam and Eve are very likely a myth"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Lying for the Lord"
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- Response to claim: "The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith....evolved after years of creative editing"
- Response to claim: "Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom"
- Response to claim: "The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy....was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith"
- Response to claim: "In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi"
- Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco"
- Response to claim: "Truthful Mormon history is considered anti-Mormon"
- Response to claim: Joseph "published another version with original revelations revised"
- Response to claim: "Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man"
- Response to claim: "Some things that are true are not very useful"
- Response to claim: "Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses"
- Response to claim: "The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe"
- Response to claim: " Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating"
- Response to claim: "nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim"
- Response to claim: "One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger"
- Response to claim: "The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement"
- Response to claim: Joseph said that "spiritual wifery" was "absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing"
- Response to claim: "the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife"
- Response to claim: "Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney...He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, 'The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you cannot be safe'"
- Response to claim: Joseph "publicly denied that he practiced plural marriage"
- Response to claim: "Official Mormon histories deceive readers by failing to point out that Joseph exercised poor judgment"
- Response to claim: "The Manifesto of 1890 prohibiting polygamy, was in fact another attempt to dupe the U.S. government and to some extent, ordinary church members"
Response to claims made on MormonThink page "Doctrine & Covenants"
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The "Spin Free" Section
The following articles extract all of the primary and secondary source quotes from the critical site, places them within their original context when possible, and provides links to the original sources online. This allows you to read the critics' articles free of critical or apologetic "spin." You read the quotes and decide for yourself what to think, without any help from FairMormon or from the critics at MormonThink. If you want to check the sources, we make it easy to go back and look at the originals whenever possible. We won't tell you what to think, and neither will the critics.
- MormonThink's "Translation of the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "The Witnesses" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "The First Vision" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "The Kinderhook Plates" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "Conflicts with Science" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗ - MormonThink's "Joseph Running with the Plates" source quotes without critical or apologetic commentary—
This is the "no spin" version of the web page. We provide all of the complete primary and secondary source quotes without any "Critic's comment," "Apologetic rebuttal" or "Our Thoughts" or "Editor comments" sections. We don't give you our interpretation of the quotes, but we do provide links to online primary sources of the quotes and provide additional context whenever possible. (Click here for full article)∗ ∗ ∗
A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni"
Summary: Grant Palmer published a paper called "Joseph Smith, Captain Kidd, Cumorah And Moroni" in the John Whitmer Historical Association Journal in 2014. Palmer asserts that Joseph Smith acquired the names "Cumorah" and "Moroni" by reading stories of Captain Kidd in his youth. Palmer concludes that it is "reasonable to assert that Joseph Smith's hill in the "land of Camorah" [Comorah/Cumorah], "city of Moroni," and "land of Moroni" [2] We respond to these claims in this article.A FairMormon Analysis of MormonThink page "Kirtland Temple Dedication"
Summary: ( http://mormonthink.com/glossary/kirtlandtemplededication.htm)Regarding the heavenly manifestations that accompanied the Kirtland Temple dedication, Mormonthink concludes that "It's likely that Joseph said he was seeing something angelic and told the congregation what he claimed to be seeing. Those in attendance relayed what Joseph said he saw. Everyone was so excited for this grand event, that they likely got caught up in the moment and imagined some extraordinary things."Jump to Subtopic:
- Response to claim: "Some who were genuinely drunk probably added fuel to the environment by claiming to see things just to support their beloved prophet"
- Response to claim: "Both Elias and Elijah also are reported to have appeared as two separate beings in the Kirtland temple....However, Elias and Elijah are the same person"
Overview of the MormonThink website
Summary: The web site MormonThink.com claims to be operated by active members of the Church with an interest in objectively presenting the "truth" about Mormonism. In general, the conclusions reached by the site reflect negatively on the Church. The best explanation of the purpose of the website is offered the words of its own webmaster, and by the testimonials of ex-Mormons who claim that the site caused them to lose belief and leave the Church.Response to MormonThink's list of 25 items that would allegedly "make the Church true"
Summary: ( http://www.mormonthink.com/endpage.htm) According to MormonThink.com, if the Church actually contained God's truth and authority, "we would expect the following things to have happened in this way." The following is a list of issues presented by the website followed by FairMormon's response. Most items on the list are standard anti-Mormon fare, issues FairMormon believes have been "asked and answered" many times. Nearly all points appeal to some type of intellectual or religious fundamentalism.The FAIR Blog responds to these questions
SteveDensleyJr,"A Yankee Lawyer’s Guide to the “Mormon Apocalypse”", FAIR Blog, (February 17, 2014)
A British man named Tom Philips has filed a fraud action in England against President Thomas Monson and is claiming that it will bring on the “Mormon Apocalypse.” However, rather than inciting fear and panic among the faithful, if they know about the case at all, the most common response is one of bewilderment among Mormons and non-Mormons alike. That is due partly to the fact that it seems quite odd that someone would pursue a case for fraud that is based on faith claims and personal opinions. But, at least for Americans, the odd nature by which the claim has arisen procedurally is equally puzzling.As an American civil defense lawyer, I think I have been as befuddled by this case as anyone. So I’ve consulted British lawyers and legal sources and come up with the following guide to what Phillips has called, the “Mormon Apocalypse.”
Click here to view the complete article
Notes
- ↑ Comment by MormonThink's founding editor, posting as "SpongeBob SquareGarments" on the ex-Mormon message board Recovery from Mormonism, Feb. 21, 2012 at 12:50PM. After FairMormon posted this quote, the original was deleted from the RFM board. The original thread in which it appeared, however, still exists here: Thread Anyone Fantasize About a Showdown with SP or Bishop?, Recovery from Mormonism, posted Feb. 20, 2012.
- ↑ Grant Palmer, John Whitmer Historical Association vol. 34 no. 1 Spring/Summer 2014